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After I kill somebody.

I got a raise! I got a really really big raise!

Then, as if not content with that, life decided to hand me a lemon. One of my team of salesmen decided to go nuts with the company credit card, racking up (at last count) nearly $700 in personal expenses.

Now he's complaining that I want it paid back immediately. He says, and I quote, "I do understand your position on this, however, I am in a situation where I need to take care of myself in terms of new housing and transportation immediately. If I take a hit of nearly half of my pay in one lump some, in addition to the amount deducted from my previous check, I will be unable to do either rendering me damn near destitute."

Shouldn't he have thought of that *before* he took his buddies out on the town a couple of times, got kicked out of his house by his fiancee, and charged nearly three hundred dollars of alcohol to the company card?

Aiiee!

Anyone ever experience anything like this, on either side? I'm pulling my hair out, here. I don't want to be vicious. I don't want to be rude. I don't want to be unfeeling.

On the other hand, I want that $700, and I want to be able to give *my* boss some answers.

Aiiee!

At least my raise means I can go buy myself some chocolate.

Julie

Yes, I've experienced this and dealt with it before. The two magic words are "payroll deduction".

To be a nice guy, I've often given the miscreant their choice of 4 checks or so in which we will automatically deduct, or we can do it all out of one check. If the employee agrees to the four check method, they sign a promissory note. If not, it all comes out of the next check. And, if they quit, the account is immediately turned over to an outside collection agency.

Quote:Originally posted by joubert
Yes, I've experienced this and dealt with it before. The two magic words are "payroll deduction".

Yep, he did this last month and got those magic words. It wasn't until that paycheck had gone out that we discovered how much more he had spent on the next month's credit card statement.

Quote:
To be a nice guy, I've often given the miscreant their choice of 4 checks or so in which we will automatically deduct, or we can do it all out of one check. If the employee agrees to the four check method, they sign a promissory note. If not, it all comes out of the next check. And, if they quit, the account is immediately turned over to an outside collection agency.

Have you ever had success with getting your money, even through a collection agency? This guy actually lives in another state, and if he skips I don't know what my resources are going to be.

Thanks.

Julie

Quote:Originally posted by jsgoddess


Have you ever had success with getting your money, even through a collection agency? This guy actually lives in another state, and if he skips I don't know what my resources are going to be.

Julie [/b]

We used the same collection agency we used for customers. Given that the amount was much bigger, they were happier. We also have corporate counsel now and would not hesitate in sending a demand letter.

The collection agency isn't necessarily successful in directly collecting the funds, but in forcing the call back to us. We then pay the agency. Works out well. This has happened a lot because of an interest free loan program we have.

Quote:Originally posted by joubert


We used the same collection agency we used for customers.

Ready for a shocker?

We've been in business for 15 years, and have never had to collect on an account.

We must be livin' right.

Julie

Ah, that is living right. Your attorney can always send a demand letter.

I have no experience at all with what you are going through, but it must be maddening. My husband's company does things the other way. They gave their employees Amex's in the employees name (which didn't make my husband very happy at all, as you might imagine). When he has to charge a work related expense, like airline tickets for a conference or hotel fare, he has to hurry to get the expense report in so that he can get reimbursement before the payment is due to American Express. Sometimes he has to pay the bill himself and doesn't get the money back until the next month.

My sister was in a bad financial spot a few years ago. She had cancer, lost her job and ran up some medical bills. At least one of her creditors got a judgment against her. That company was then able to basically have the money deducted from her paycheck at her new job. Not quite how sure that works from a legal standpoint, but it was a shock when her paycheck for that pay period was basically nothing. So I'm sure there must be a way to get the money even if he quits, but if he's in another state it will be hard.

Quote:Originally posted by AmyLEnsor
I have no experience at all with what you are going through, but it must be maddening. My husband's company does things the other way. They gave their employees Amex's in the employees name (which didn't make my husband very happy at all, as you might imagine). When he has to charge a work related expense, like airline tickets for a conference or hotel fare, he has to hurry to get the expense report in so that he can get reimbursement before the payment is due to American Express. Sometimes he has to pay the bill himself and doesn't get the money back until the next month.

Unfortunately, with a bad apple like this in the bunch, we may be forced to go to something like that. I hate the idea, because I know that the money adds up really quickly, especially for salespeople.

I'm going to try my hardest not to let this deteriorate that far, but I'll need that salesman to help. Frankly, he doesn't seem very helpful yet.

Quote:My sister was in a bad financial spot a few years ago. She had cancer, lost her job and ran up some medical bills. At least one of her creditors got a judgment against her. That company was then able to basically have the money deducted from her paycheck at her new job. Not quite how sure that works from a legal standpoint, but it was a shock when her paycheck for that pay period was basically nothing. So I'm sure there must be a way to get the money even if he quits, but if he's in another state it will be hard.

Ouch. That had to be rough on her. I hope she made it through.

This guy makes a good salary from us, and good commissions. If he just reins in his spending and uses some sense, he should be okay.

Of course, if he'd reined in his spending and used some sense, he wouldn't be in this mess!

Maybe I should start another thread, but here's another question: What do you do if you suspect an employee has a drinking problem?

When I was in Tampa last month for a trade show with all of my salespeople, we stayed in Residence Inn, which had a full kitchen. I went to a local grocer with this salesman and bought lunch-type stuff. Bread, lunch meats, some fruit, etc.

He bought a twelve pack of beer and a bottle of wine.

That Visa bill we've gotten includes lots of alcohol at dinner (we do not pay for alcohol), one time nearly fifty dollars worth for one meal.

If you suspected an alcohol problem, would you say something?

Julie

Be warned: I consider taking company funds and property a very serious offence. :angry:

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Aiiee is right!

Wow.

It sounds to me like this is an issue of theft of company funds. He used company credit for personal use, he is not immediately returning it, promising to never do it again, and rushing out to prove what a valuable employee he really is. You said you were already using payroll deductions to get back some money. I didn't understand - did he go on one spending spree and it's just taking time for the bills to come in, or is this a second offense?

I've never dealt with an employee who stole a significant amount of money. In my case the person stole less than 100 dollars from the till. The storeowner just took the loss, and I got to fire the employee.

Has he broken any company policies by using the card for personal use and refusing to pay his debt immediately? Do the salesmen have to sign an agreement explaining appropriate and inappropriate use of the Company card?

"I don't want to be vicious. I don't want to be rude. I don't want to be unfeeling. "

It's business. He is responsible for his actions. You're trying to find a solution to a business problem he created because of his personal problems. Bottom line: He took money that does not belong to him. He owes it now.

If this is someone who deserves a second chance, some great guy who just messed up for the first time in his life, and you know he just needs a helping hand to get back on his feet, would you consider loaning him the $700 yourself? I wouldn't recommend that you do, I'd just like to make him see that taking money from a company is no different (ie. just as bad) as taking money from an individual. You already know $300 was spent on alcohol. He's not Robin Hood; he hasn't taken your company's money to feed the starving.

"...I will be unable to do either rendering me damn near destitute." Yep, it's amazing how spending money that you don't have will do that to you. It's a hard lesson to learn, I'm sure many of us have more debt than we want. Taking company funds is not the answer. He better start knocking on his beer buddies door asking them to pay him back for their drinks.

Does he still have the company card? Have you reduced the limit on it?

Do the other salesmen know what this fellow has been doing?

There are so many honest people out there looking for a job, seems a shame to stick with someone who is taking company funds.

Apart from this (one time?) misuse of the card is he a good employee? Is he worth this hassle?

This is worthy of its own message:

Quote:Originally posted by jsgoddess
I got a raise! I got a really really big raise!

:celebrate
Congratulations!
:celebrate

Julie, what exactly is your role with regard to the salesperson. Does that person report to you or are you peers?

In a reporting relationship, I always find it best to advise HR management of my concerns. I've found booze hidden in our freezer and once in a paper towel dispenser in the bathroom.

That said, I know that a number of folks who don't travel much (and unfortunately, some who do) drink heavily while on the road. There's apparently something liberating about their not being around home that lets them start being goofy. I don't see it much, but I do see it at trade shows.

In one particular show, we bring nearly two dozen people. They've learned over the years to buy lots of beer and stuff at groceries and bring it up to their room. (Just what you love to see - a $300 per night room and guys walking in with plastic grocery bags and beer cases sticking out the top). I leave them alone, but don't let them talk to customers or prospects if they've been drinking. This is especially true the night that two men and a woman went drinking with two male customers and ended up in some compromising positions.

If you're seeing the behavior back at home or at an out-of-control level at the office, enlist some HR help.

Hi, nicholmere. You have some really good points.

Quote:Originally posted by nicholmere
Be warned: I consider taking company funds and property a very serious offence. :angry:

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Aiiee is right!

Wow.

It sounds to me like this is an issue of theft of company funds. He used company credit for personal use, he is not immediately returning it, promising to never do it again, and rushing out to prove what a valuable employee he really is. You said you were already using payroll deductions to get back some money. I didn't understand - did he go on one spending spree and it's just taking time for the bills to come in, or is this a second offense?

The former. He took a friend out for a night on the town, spending nearly $300 dollars. That hit at the very end of one of Visa's billing cycles. When I asked him about it, he said he "took the wrong credit card." I was understanding. Heck, I've done that myself.

But two things were troubling: he didn't pay the money back right away, so I had to hound him a bit over it. I finally just had it deducted from his paycheck.

The other thing is the type of charges they were. Two charges of $115 each to a company called "Minx Ent" in Detroit, Michigan. Plue a charge of $50 or so for the same night to a company called "Celebrity Dining," also of Detroit.

What bothers me is that a search on these two names, using Google or the yellow pages, doesn't show anything. I'm concerned by the "Minx" part. When I bounced this off my husband, he said it sounded like adult entertainment of some sort.

So that made me wary. I chose not to push it too hard, thinking that if it never happened again one little mistake (using the wrong card) is pretty forgiveable.

So very shortly after that, he was at another trade show. He called up late one afternoon, annoyed because his credit card was being refused. He said, "I have no idea why it's being turned down. I haven't used it. Didn't you guys pay the bill?"

I called the bank and got access to the account to see what was being charged. He had run it over the limit with more charges to "Minx Ent," "Celebrity Dining," and others.

This made me extremely angry, not only that he was still using the card for personal reasons, but that he called and complained to me that his card was being turned down, and lied about using it.

Quote:
I've never dealt with an employee who stole a significant amount of money. In my case the person stole less than 100 dollars from the till. The storeowner just took the loss, and I got to fire the employee.

Has he broken any company policies by using the card for personal use and refusing to pay his debt immediately? Do the salesmen have to sign an agreement explaining appropriate and inappropriate use of the Company card?

He has broken more than one company policy. Using the card for personal use (we have made exceptions when the person contacts us beforehand), not supplying itemized receipts for all uses of the card, and possibly using the card for unseemly activities.

Quote:

"I don't want to be vicious. I don't want to be rude. I don't want to be unfeeling. "

It's business. He is responsible for his actions. You're trying to find a solution to a business problem he created because of his personal problems. Bottom line: He took money that does not belong to him. He owes it now.

If this is someone who deserves a second chance, some great guy who just messed up for the first time in his life, and you know he just needs a helping hand to get back on his feet, would you consider loaning him the $700 yourself? I wouldn't recommend that you do, I'd just like to make him see that taking money from a company is no different (ie. just as bad) as taking money from an individual. You already know $300 was spent on alcohol. He's not Robin Hood; he hasn't taken your company's money to feed the starving.

To be honest, I don't much like this guy. I'm trying to handle it as if I did like him. I'm imagining that he's one of my other salesmen--one that I really like as a person. If X did something like this, what would my reaction be? Is Y's case different?

It's hard to go out on a limb for someone you don't like. Ack.

Quote:"...I will be unable to do either rendering me damn near destitute." Yep, it's amazing how spending money that you don't have will do that to you. It's a hard lesson to learn, I'm sure many of us have more debt than we want. Taking company funds is not the answer. He better start knocking on his beer buddies door asking them to pay him back for their drinks.

Does he still have the company card? Have you reduced the limit on it?

He still has the card, but it's over its limit. I'm holding off paying it until I either decide to cancel the card, give him another chance, or find another solution.

Quote:Do the other salesmen know what this fellow has been doing?

Salesman X talked privately with me about concerns he had about the trade show. I don't know if our other two salespeople know what's going on.

Quote:There are so many honest people out there looking for a job, seems a shame to stick with someone who is taking company funds.

Apart from this (one time?) misuse of the card is he a good employee? Is he worth this hassle?

I'm not sure he's worth the hassle, but that could be my personal dislike (that may be too strong, ambivalence?) for him.

Writing it all out like this makes him look pretty bad, doesn't it?

Julie

Quote:Originally posted by nicholmere
This is worthy of its own message:




:celebrate
Congratulations!
:celebrate

Thanks!

The raise was a complete surprise. I'm happy!

Julie

Quote:Originally posted by joubert
Julie, what exactly is your role with regard to the salesperson. Does that person report to you or are you peers?

He reports to me.

The annoying thing about having employees in other states is knowing what they're doing.

I know his fiancee kicked him out, but have no way of knowing why, or if the why matters.

We're a pretty small company and there really isn't a good person to know more about this guy than I do.

Frustrating stuff.

Julie

Run, don't walk, to HR. At least share your concerns so that this doesn't rubberband back on you with this quote, Geez, didn't you see this coming?

I do have a bit of experience in this area. One of my soldiers went nuts with his government credit card (to be used for travel expenses only). Fortunately, I had some pretty good guidelines that told me how to take care of it. Not only did the money come out of his paychecks (it took two to cover the amount charged and give him a few dollars to live on--he lived in the barracks) but he also got an Article 15 (punishment) from me and I cancelled the card. All common procedure.

First, maybe I'm merciless when it comes to money, but the money didn't belong to your employee in the first place so I, in your position, would take the entire amount of the first paycheck, just to be sure I got it all. Second, I would cancel his company card permanently to prevent him making excuses or putting you in a bad position again.

Maya Angelou says that when people show you who they really are--believe them! Believe this guy--he will just abuse any further trust you place in him.

I hope this works out for the best.

--naomi

Any updates? I just read this thread and am really curious to see what happens.

Quote:Originally posted by jenninca
Any updates? I just read this thread and am really curious to see what happens.

Not yet.

I'm not due back at work until Wednesday, though I may end up going in early to clear this up. Aiiee!

Julie

Quote:Originally posted by jsgoddess
What bothers me is that a search on these two names, using Google or the yellow pages, doesn't show anything. I'm concerned by the "Minx" part. When I bounced this off my husband, he said it sounded like adult entertainment of some sort.

Yep, sounds like an escort service of some sort (too much money for just movies). When I did my stint as a traveling consultant the late night TV was filled with commercials promising adult entertainment and assurances that nothing incriminating would appear on the credit card.

He certainly isn't behaving like a model employee, that's for sure. I agree with Joubert's suggestion to contact HR. You mentioned your company is small, do you have an HR or something similar? You probably do not even have to get involved in the possible drinking problems, there's enough lies/misuse involving the company credit card to justify termination (if that's the way you're headed). I've been involved in situations related to employees with drinking problems - it's very unpleasant, for both sides. In my case the employee left on their own, saving a lot of grief. As long as you have written documentation to justify the firing I say go for it.

It's been a long time since I've been responsible for hiring/firing people. It helps when the circumstances are so cut and dried that they justify the termination, but it doesn't make it any easier. The saying, "this will hurt me more than it hurts you" has always sounded silly to me, cause you know the employee is the person who is left trying to reoganize their life, but it really does hurt to know that what you are doing is going to have a very negative impact on the person's life. However, they are responsible for what's happened, and you still have to make the right business decision and can only hope that the fellow gets his life organized on his own time.

Side note: This brings back memories of two consultants I worked with. One was single and one was married - but the way they spent their nights out you would never have guessed it. The stories we heard in the morning would have made a college frat boy blush. The married fellow always complained that his meal allowance didn't even cover his nightly cognac. Rumour has it that he'd just add an extra hour to his billing. I met up with him a year later, he'd been promoted , but then I heard he was fired by the new owners a short while later.

Whatever you decide to do Julie I wish you good luck!

- Katherine

Whew. Do a google search for "Minx Entertainment" and see what turns up.

Quote:Originally posted by ThePirateKing
Whew. Do a google search for "Minx Entertainment" and see what turns up.

Oh my.

Julie