An Adult Debate

[amykhar]

Madonna appeared in concert in Phlly last night
(Here's the review from the Philly paper)

http://inq.philly.com/content/inquir...zine/MAD23.htm

The review mentioned that "Like a Prayer" wasn't performed. This song has always sparked heated debate between me, my husband, and a couple of other friends.

I say the song is about oral sex. My husband says it's about religion.

Any thoughts?

Amy

[erik_kosberg]

Compromise and call it a song about the religion of oral sex.

[drmomentum[$]]

Definitely not about religion. Otherwise why would it be [i]like[i] a prayer.

-JP

[vemartin]

Amy,

Humm, interesting interpretation...might we ask how you came about it?

[amykhar]

I knew somebody was going to do that .

When you call my name it's like a little prayer
I'm down on my knees, I wanna take you there

It seems that Madonna is messing with word play again. It's an innocent little phrase that is full of sexual innuendo and double meanings.

Amy

[vemartin]

And is there anything wrong with being "taken there?" If indeed the song is about oral sex, is there anything wrong with the act of oral sex?

[wivabef]

Just so we can all examine this a little closer

Life is a mystery, everyone must stand alone
I hear you call my name
And it feels like home

Chorus:

When you call my name it's like a little prayer
I'm down on my knees, I wanna take you there
In the midnight hour I can feel your power
Just like a prayer you know I'll take you there

I hear your voice, it's like an angel sighing
I have no choice, I hear your voice
Feels like flying
I close my eyes, Oh God I think I'm falling
Out of the sky, I close my eyes
Heaven help me

(chorus)

Like a child you whisper softly to me
You're in control just like a child
Now I'm dancing
It's like a dream, no end and no beginning
You're here with me, it's like a dream
Let the choir sing

(chorus)

Just like a prayer, your voice can take me there
Just like a muse to me, you are a mystery
Just like a dream, you are not what you seem
Just like a prayer, no choice your voice can take me there

Just like a prayer, I'll take you there
It's like a dream to me


Okay. Pretty innocuous and vague. I think it was the video that ticked people off, not the song.

If that was the case, perhaps Trisha Yearwood should be more controversial:

"I'd be down on my knees
Ready to pray
Darlin' down on my knees
Making you stay
I'd be beggin you please
Don't take your love from me
I'd be down on my knees "

[amykhar]

Vincent,
Of course not. It's just funny to me that some people see the song as strictly about God and religion, and others see it to be about sex.

It's like one of those trick pictures where some people see an old woman, and others see a young lady. I think it depends on which view you see first.

Amy

[sylvanb]

Originally posted by vemartin
And is there anything wrong with being "taken there?" If indeed the song is about oral sex, is there anything wrong with the act of oral sex?

Not as such, perhaps, but I'd just as soon not have to include the subject in a conversation with my ten-year-old nephew on why I don't much like Madonna.

Just call me old-fashioned....

[poseidon]

It's a song, and not a very good one at that.

Then again it's Madonna, and I never much cared for her.

[cristina1]

I never thought it was a song about religion, but I also never came out with the oral sex translation either. Although it is full of sexual innuendo, I still cant see the oral sex part.

Of course, it isnt as clear as Cyndi Lauper's "She-bop" that seems to be a song about masturbation.

[frazzledspice]

Call me old-fashioned, but is down on the knees the most usual way to perform that act?

Or is it only the most common way in airplane lavatories?

I mean wouldn't a guy get a little weak in the knees standing up in such a situation?

[drmomentum[$]]

Originally posted by cristina1
Of course, it isnt as clear as Cyndi Lauper's "She-bop" that seems to be a song about masturbation.

Apparently, masturbation songs were popular in the 80's. One I was just "informed of" is The Vapors' hit "Turning Japanese." I never suspected until the visual explanation was given to me. You can look it up online to get the details. Apparently the lead singer has alternately confirmed and denied the meaning of the song depending on his mood.

-JP

[poseidon]

Don't forget D'Vinyl's hit, "I Touch Myself."

[amykhar]

Originally posted by drmomentum


You can look it up online to get the details.

For those of you who are curious but don't want to expend any effort

http://www.visi.com/~lazlo/liz/faq.h...urningjapanese

I think that Madonna was talking about both religion and oral sex. But are they on different levels in this song? I think not.

The thing that most people *really* don't notice about the song is that it has an even deeper meaning. Read the lyrics again. Listen to the song a few times.

This isn't about some babe going down on Father O'Reilly or an altar boy between masses. It's about both at the same time in a different way. There's a maleness to the fellating supplicant. She's attacking the Catholic Church for hypocrisy when it comes to banning openly gay priests and yet being a magnet for such devoted (yet homosexual) servants of God.

(PS: I'm all for it. Folks should not be discriminated against based on their gender preference, nor should they be preferred over others. If Mother Church wants their tax exempt status as a religion, then welcome all comers and don't get involved in gender politics, eh.)

[magenta321]

I grew up on a diet of Madonna. I remember in Kindergarten or First Grade I was sining "like a virgin" in my Madonna costume (lace bows in my hair, lace gloves, lace leggings, skirt and tank top... oy!) and all the sudden I stopped and said "hey, mommy, what's a virgin?"
"Oh, like the virgin Mary"
"What do you mean?"
"Well, she was Jesus' mother."
"I don't think Madonna is singing about Jesus' mother. What does virgin really mean?"
"I don't know. Ask your grandma, she is real religious. She was going to be a nun you know."


Later that same day...

"Gramma, what's a virgin?"
"Someone who is pure."
"What does that mean?"
"Not dirty."
"So what does the song mean?"
"What song?"
"Like a Virgin."
"I guess Madonna feels that she was dirty and now she is clean."

Great, so now I was "like a virgin" anytime I came out of the bathtub.

Madonna may cause a lot of controversy, but I am not sure she really does anything that bad. I would have stumbled across the word virgin on my own soon enough. Not only that, but I didn't understand her songs, even though I knew all the words.

Papa Don't Preach (the song teenage pregnancy and "keepin' my baby") came out when I was in Second grade, I believe. I knew all the words, and could probably reinact the entire music video. Still, I didn't have a clue what it was about. I thought her dad didn't like her boyfriend and she was going to keep him. He was her baby.

This year, I was playing the song in my car, and I told my then boyfriend what I used to think the song was about. He turns to me and says "why, what else could it be about?" I told him, and it was like the lights came on. Since we grew up with the song, and he was a little kid when it came out as well, he never thought about what the lyrics were or what they were saying.

As for Like a Prayer, I never heard that it was about oral sex (and I was in fifth grade when that song came out, so I definately would have been interested in such an interpretation (puberty was in full effect... ick). I always thought the controversy over that song was the fact that there are 1. Crosses burning, and 2. an inter-racial relationship (and also the fact that there is a black jesus figure, and that the black Jesus figure and Madonna kiss).

I think the video is about being persecuted for loving someone of a different race (and Madonna has dated outside her race a lot), where I thought the song was just about being with someone you love (no mention of anything like persecution in the song). Personally, I love the video and the song isn't bad either And if it is about oral sex to you, so be it

[wivabef]

Originally posted by file13

This isn't about some babe going down on Father O'Reilly or an altar boy between masses. It's about both at the same time in a different way. There's a maleness to the fellating supplicant. She's attacking the Catholic Church for hypocrisy when it comes to banning openly gay priests and yet being a magnet for such devoted (yet homosexual) servants of God.

Wow. Interesting.

I always thought it was a song about being so in love with a man, and sychronistically, God (in three persons, as the Catholics see it) that she was no longer in control of her emotions. She doesn't understand how someone so independent as herself could be transported away from her own control (just like a muse to me, you are a mystery) and she is disconnected intelligently from her love of this man as she is for the love of God.

I thought it was a song about faith and the calling -- and how it correlates ethereally as well as IRL.


Then again, it could just be about a blow job. But, SHE's awfully happy about it, and generally that's not the case.

[frazzledspice]

File, I think it's obvious that years ago some dysfunctional men became priests, and that they were dysfunctional not because they were gay but because they were pederasts.

I think that now people who enter the ministries of all churches are older. They are better screened, psychologically and emotionally, to ensure that they are able to commit fully to their ministry.

What Catholicism wants from its priests is celibacy, whether their genetic predisposition is gay or straight. In either case, they are supposed to live celibate lives consecrated to God.

When we go back and try to judge things that happened historically by our modern standards--whether it's judging Mark Twain's "Huckleberry Finn" to be racist or judging the church for ordaining pederasts who, subsequent to their ordination, abused children--we are making lots of false assumptions.

I would like to see celibacy removed as a condition for the priesthood. I would like to see women ordained as well. I don't know if that will happen in my lifetime, although I hope it will.

I think that other barriers are less likely to fall.

[poseidon]

Originally posted by frazzledspice
File, I think it's obvious that years ago some dysfunctional men became priests, and that they were dysfunctional not because they were gay but because they were pederasts.

I think that now people who enter the ministries of all churches are older. They are better screened, psychologically and emotionally, to ensure that they are able to commit fully to their ministry.

What Catholicism wants from its priests is celibacy, whether their genetic predisposition is gay or straight. In either case, they are supposed to live celibate lives consecrated to God.

When we go back and try to judge things that happened historically by our modern standards--whether it's judging Mark Twain's "Huckleberry Finn" to be racist or judging the church for ordaining pederasts who, subsequent to their ordination, abused children--we are making lots of false assumptions.

I would like to see celibacy removed as a condition for the priesthood. I would like to see women ordained as well. I don't know if that will happen in my lifetime, although I hope it will.

I think that other barriers are less likely to fall.

Good luck. I wouldn't count on that for a long, long time. Most of the fundementalist Protestant religions don't allow for female pastors if they would have any leadership over men in the church -- and they base it on Biblical teachings not only described in the New Testament but the Old Testament as well.

Women are allowed leadership roles in the church -- over other women. Thus, unless you had a church body made up 100% of women, you won't see a woman on the podium giving the sermon.

But in reformed and charismatic churches, you will find female pastors that do have leadership roles over men. Then again, some of those churches have tossed many of God's commandments by the wayside -- including allowing premarital sex, homosexuality, dropping baptism totally, etc. If that church's teachings fits in your comfort level and belief system, then that's between you and God. If it doesn't, then again that's between you and God and I'd hope that you'd have the gumption to find another church that does subscribe to your beliefs.

As far as the celibacy thing goes, I don't know enough about the Catholic Church or its teachings to understand where they derive that from. I certainly don't see it in the Bible anywhere, but then again I'll admit I don't know Leviticus (from the Old Testament) backwards and forwards. Perhaps there's some rule about priests and celibacy in there -- then again there's a lot in the Catholic Church that I don't understand where they got it from -- such as confession to a priest (the Bible says you should confess your sins to God, not to a priest), the various sacraments, the entire notion of Purgatory itself, and the entire heirarchy of the Church (the Bible mentions elders and deacons, but not the Pope, Cardinals, Bishops, Archbishops, etc.). Paying alms or whatever to relinquish sin is another one.

NOTE: I am not blasting Catholocism at all. I'm just saying I don't understand where these rules, regulations, sacraments, etc. are derived from. Perhaps someone like Father Kurt or another who is familiar enough with the Catholic Church can clarify?

[KristenNC]

I think it's about religion. Sorry Amy.

Is there something about knees that makes everyone think of blow jobs? Cause I'm on my knees a lot and I promise... no sex involved.



Okay, well, anyway. Madonna. Song. Like A Prayer. She's transported by her messed up quasi-Catholic/new age spiritualism. At least that's what I always thought.

OH and I had the lace gloves and big hair too.

K