How old is too young, how young is old enough?

[erik_kosberg]

from the sex with interns thread:

Originally posted by poseidon
Wait a minute. These are not mature men and women at all. I'll tell you from first hand experience (I was a congressional intern in 1989), most interns are sophomores, juniors and seniors in college. This is an age where you still make very stupid decisions because of a lack of experience and maturity.

from the Nathaniel Brazill thread:

Originally posted by cristina1
They are old enough to know right from wrong. They are old enough to know better. They are old enough to understand their actions. I dont buy any line that "they do stupid things."

edited for a typo

[drmomentum[$]]

Erik:

You have to factor in that there are many hang-ups that people have when it comes to sex, especially in the US. You're more likely to see horribly violent content approved for TV than you are mildly sexual content. There are commercials that run in Europe (funny ones, I might add) that would never fly here because of their blatant or implied sexuality.

Once you adjust for the sexual skew, you'll see that it colors a lot of our culture.

In a way we prepare our kids to consider violence. I don't believe the media and movies urge our kids to commit violent acts, but they do get the kids thinking about it. On the other hand, we shield our kids from sex if at all possible. God forbid they should know what a condom is or come anywhere near someone who might give them one. However, it's important for them to learn all about guns.

When it comes time to make decisions about sex,many have been brought up so that the only instruction they've had is "It's BAD, don't do it." and so of course they are unprepared and often make the wrong decision. These same people can't fathom how others could possibly make a correct decision (different from theirs) in the same situation.

-JP

[frazzledspice]

I remember working on a political campaign when I was in college. My friend wanted me to get involved. This was during the late 1960's, when Vietnam was a huge issue and many students got politically involved.

I wasn't even old enough to vote (you had to be 21 to vote in the 1960's...they changed the voting age to 18 in 1972 or so.)

There was so much sleeping around going on in the campaign, so much seduction, so many married men with wandering eyes that it was a wonder that any campaigning went on at all.

My friend was kind of promiscuous at the time, and she thought it was a lot of fun. I thought it was less so, and have not really actively participated in any political campaigns since then.

Is there something about politics that attracts the promiscuous?

[pluckyduck]

Good question, Erik.

Most people wouldn't debate that younger people are very prone to influence, influence of their peers or influence of older people whom they admire.

In the case of an intern/congressman, the first person I'm going to blame is the older person who knows better, but would never absolve a starry eyed coed of her responsibility either. Raging hormones or puppy love or whatever, she still has to have that moment where she says "I know this is wrong, but I'm going to do it anyway." Plenty of people do that; it's just a lot harder for someone who hasn't been married to understand exactly how wrong it is. I remember being completely shocked, married at 29, at how deep and vast the commitment of marriage was. I just didn't understand it before I got married.

Taking a life? I don't think it's hard for a 13 year old to grasp how wrong that is. Now, if the kid we were talking about in the other thread had been shown to have been under the influence of some kind of authority figure (say his father handed him a gun and pressured him to kill someone, or something like that), I'd have a much different opinion of the whole thing. You could argue that if the father were removed from the equation, the kid might be able to live a responsible and productive life, and then you could argue that treating him as a juvenile, rather than an adult would be the right thing to do.

That doesn't seem to have been the case.

My two cents.

Andrea

[cristina1]

I really have to applaud what Plucky said. Great answer.

When a 13 year old boy takes a gun, puts a bullet in it and points it at someone to be threatening, you cannot tell me he does not realize that is so wrong. There are no excuses for cold blooded murder. Someone calling it a stupid mistake is just insulting the intelligence of society. Maybe this kid regrets what he did now - I imagine it isnt a pleasant feeling to have taken a life. But that is beside the point. We cant have teenagers running around killing people because they make stupid mistakes. Just about anything else I can take with a grain of salt, but not murder. A stupid mistake would have been if he slashed the teacher's tires or prank called his house. Maybe stealing something out of his desk. Murder is NOT a stupid mistake.

In the case of affairs, in ANY situation like that, the first and foremost person I put the blame on is the MARRIED individual. Why? Because a married person stood in front of a judge or priest or minister - whoever performed the ceremony - and vowed to be committed to the person they are marrying. We dont know the details of the Levy case of how these two got together, but even if she was an agressive, would do anything to get this guy type of girl, HE still has more blame than she does.

Throw in the age difference, maturity levels, the status differences, and again, he is so much more to blame than she is. Maybe because I had a friend that once had a fling with a married man, so I kind of understand what she went through. It's a situation where it is a whole lot easier to see what is happening from the outside looking in, than when you are in the situation. He told her he loved her, would divorce his wife for her, how bad his marriage was, etc. She was a beautiful but insecure girl. Regardless of what I said to her, she was so sure that this man was Mr. Right. He had her eating out of his hand. In her mind, the whole thing was justified because of how bad his marriage was and how awful it was for him to live in the house with his wife. Until, his wife turned up pregnant and happy and my poor friend realized how bad she was being lied to and used.

I am not saying that no blame should be placed on Rachel (my friend.) But, when you take a young girl with no experience and put her against someone who has been around the block a few times, she couldnt compete. But even she knew better than to kill the SOB when she realized what happened.

So, to answer the question how old is still too young and how young is too old - it depends on the situation. Just like at 18 we can trust someone to vote the next politician in office or purchase a firearm, but cant trust the same person with a beer in hand, it goes for everything else out there too.

[pluckyduck]

I really have to applaud what Plucky said. Great answer.

I get my weekly exercise in this kind of thinking from watching Law and Order.

It is always fascinating to try to balance justice with the law, because they are two very different things.

JMHO.

Andrea

[erik_kosberg]

Isn’t it just a bit too easy to transfer the blame to the older married person in the sex with interns thread? And what if that older person isn’t even married? I guess my point was that Jeff was implying that 20-somethings weren’t completely responsible (still make very stupid decisions because of a lack of experience and maturity) for their actions when it comes to sex but Cristina thought that a 13-year-old was completely responsible (not buying the line they do stupid things). I don’t see how it’s possible to hold both views.

I also find it just a tiny bit odd that no one here has seriously suggested that 13-year-olds should be subject to the death penalty. If my memory is correct, a few months ago Jeff (a strong supporter of the death penalty) said in an earlier thread about Brazill that he didn’t favor the death penalty for minors. And in the British case with the kids who’d tortured and killed an even younger child, the consensus in the Soapbox among those who favor harsh punishment was much the same as it’s been for the Brazill case: lock ’em up and throw away the key. I’m personally opposed to the death penalty for a wide variety of reasons, but I just don’t follow the logic of its supporters. If kids are responsible enough for their crimes to recieve a lock ’em up and throw away the key sentence, exactly why shouldn’t they get a needle in the arm?

I fail to see why a 20-year-old is too young or too stupid to see that his/her actions are wrong but a 13-year-old is neither too young nor too stupid to see that his are. One or the other might be argued; I don’t see how both positions can be held simultaneously.

[poseidon]

Because you're not comparing apples to apples, Erik. Killing someone is wrong on a completely different level. When you're 13, you should know that committing murder is wrong. You know what you're doing.

But when you're engaged in sexual activity, that's something completely different. The same kind of consequences don't exist as they do with murder. It would be very difficult to lure someone innocent into murdering someone... it isn't that difficult (I would imagine, since I've never tried this) to lure someone innocent into a sexual relationship.

[drmomentum[$]]

Perhaps they are not as different as you think. In cases I know where luring one innocent person to kill another has actually happened, the first step is usually luring them into sex.

-JP

(P.S. While I agree that there is probably more effort involved in killing someone than there is in sex, it seems clear that similar skills are employed in convincing someone to do either, and people good at one are sometimes good at the other)

Originally posted by poseidon
Because you're not comparing apples to apples, Erik. Killing someone is wrong on a completely different level. When you're 13, you should know that committing murder is wrong. You know what you're doing.

But when you're engaged in sexual activity, that's something completely different. The same kind of consequences don't exist as they do with murder. It would be very difficult to lure someone innocent into murdering someone... it isn't that difficult (I would imagine, since I've never tried this) to lure someone innocent into a sexual relationship.