What schools should teach

[hadassahchana[$]]

Yesterday, the Elementary Teachers Federation of Ontario voted to ask for inclusion of more gay/lesbian literature in school libraries. The vote was 480 for, and 20 against the motion.

Today on the local talk radio, people were more than 90% against this. Reasons given were anything from wanting more time devoted to basics to wanting to teach one's own children about topics such as this.

I thought a lot about this, becuase the ages of the children who will be affected are between 5-13.

I want to know this, then:

What is the school's role in teaching children about things such as hate and racism? Should the parents be the only ones to teach their children about 'controversial' topics such as sexual orientation?

Should schools be used as one way to shape society, or is that their role? Can we limit the education received in schools to education only about such basics as science, math, language arts, etc.?

Cindy

[jnbmoore]

Can we limit the education received in schools to education only about such basics as science, math, language arts, etc.?

In my thread about my summer classes I pointed out that not all the time are the schools successful at teaching the basics.....

Second, that's one of the reasons I'm thinking of homeschooling. There's already a push on lots of things I'm not sure an elementary school kid needs to know.

(Threading on thin ice)

We'll be teaching her to take the Bible in the evangelical sense. A six or seven year old doesn't need the school to teach counter everything that we are teaching her at home.x

Ex: at a friend's house I did correct my friend. She had the Chinese tv station on and the Buddhist prayer time program came on. And she wanted my daughter to do the prayers. I said no. My friend said that it was all the same (she is a very very very strong Taiwense Buddhist). I had to explain that I didn't feel it was the same and didn't really want my three year old to do Buddhist prayers. I don't left monkey girl play with the god shelf so we are respectful just don't go along with everything.

As she gets older she'll be making her own decsions hopeful based on a firm foundation.

Besides as another thread states that we don't want religion to be in charge of government, do I want the state to dictate what my kids are learning in the moral or religious area?

Bridgette
not sure if she was logical

[hadassahchana[$]]

Bridgette,

I agree with about 90% of what you said. My kids go to a religious dayschool for that reason- however, these teachers just wanted some books added to the school library, not a change in curricula for all grades. They wanted to be able to use the books with students who might benefit from them.

At first, I thought that I disagreed with this vote, as I at first coouldn't really see the point in educating very young children about anyone's sexual orientation.

Then, one caller completely changed my mind. She was a retired teacher, and the mother of a gay son. She pointed out that the children use objectioanable owrds like 'faggot' with increasing frequencey even at young ages, and she wants the school to do more to try and educate the children about tolerance and hatred.

She said that by teaching kids to respect each other at a young age, we have a better shot at getting what at least I want, which is a society of people educated well en0ough to tolerate others without bias.

I think that's very sensible- but it did make me think about using schools for social engineering. I'm not sure whether I'm in favour or not...

Cindy

[frazzledspice]

I am assuming, of course, that these books will be age-appropriate and of literary value.

I do think that many children may know gay people as relatives, neighbors, family friends, or even parents. I think that it is probably better for children to read about gay men and women in works of literature than to be exposed to stereotypes in network television or movies.

I know that many people would object to these books in school because of religious beliefs that homosexuality is wrong, and the literature would steer clear of moral judgments.

I would find it difficult to condemn an entire class of literature. I think that perhaps PTO committees might be allowed to read the books under consideration and give feedback as to their appropriateness. There might be books that approach the topic with sensitivity, and others that might be inappropriate.

We had a gay couple as next-door neighbors for awhile. My daughter took their relationship for granted, and just thought of them as the "parents" of Dottie and Ginger (their dogs.) One of them had a teenage daughter who would visit from time to time. They were friendly and fun and good neighbors.

I think that this was a good opportunity for her, as a young child, to get to know gay people as neighbors and friends. I'm sure she thought about their sexual behavior about as infrequently as she thought about any other adult's. All kids know that their parents never do it (or at least they hope they don't.)

We are all just people first, regardless of our gender, age, race, or sexual orientation, and I would always like my children to look at other people as people, and try to find the commonalities instead of judging differences.

[kuuleimomi]

How many times we've heard that school should prepare kids for real world? And we all know that the reality is way different from what is taught in school [sometimes/most of the times/usually/often/always, etc.]

My school raised homophobia in kids. In my article on homosexuality I highlighted the effect school had on my own view on gay people. Teachers did not allowed words like "gay" to be used, even if it was used as "happy". Also, I was not allowed to write a paper for human rights class on homosexuality, how about that?

From what I heard from gay people, many search for support in their school library but never find books that will tell them that it's ok to be gay and they are not alone. Let me tell you, that is one of the major reasons for depression among gay youth.

Also, straight kids never managed to read that being gay is ok. The only source for them was parents and mass media [with Dr. Laura in charge, ugh]. If the parents are just like mine, then the kids would be raised as xenophobs, dial 911, this is an emergency.

So I believe school should teach more about homosexuality, gay/bi rights and have at least few books on related topics.

Finn

[poseidon]

Then, one caller completely changed my mind. She was a retired teacher, and the mother of a gay son. She pointed out that the children use objectioanable owrds like 'faggot' with increasing frequencey even at young ages, and she wants the school to do more to try and educate the children about tolerance and hatred.

I won't comment on the subject itself, but I will comment on this particular caller.

I think that this caller is unrealistic. Certain kids are mean, plain and simple. They have been forever. They find something to pick on someone about, and no amount of teaching kids that they need to respect each other will stop it IMHO.

This is like trying to stop bullying. You can identify bullies and you can discipline bullies, but the bullies will continue to bully until a kid beats the snot out of them.

Jeff

[erik_kosberg]

Should schools be used as one way to shape society, or is that their role?

Whether or not schools should be used as a way to shape society could probably be debated here ad nauseam, but public schools have been used in such a fashion ever since they first existed. Public schooling started in England and quickly spread across the Atlantic. Early pedagogics was based quite literally on factories — uniformity was the desired output. Public schooling was primarily for the poor and, to a somewhat lesser extent, for the children of the middle-class. Wealthier people generally had their children privately tutored at home. In the late 19th and early 20th century, public schooling was used quite intentionally to mold the children of polyglot immigrants into English-speaking Americans. When I was a kid, we all pledged alliegence to the flag in public schools, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, and was not that an attempt to shape society?

The question then is not so much should schools be used as one way to shape society so much as what type of society do we want to strive for. But that question could also be debated here ad nauseam.

[juliette]

Originally posted by hadassahchana
Yesterday, the Elementary Teachers Federation of Ontario voted to ask for inclusion of more gay/lesbian literature in school libraries.

I thought I knew what I thought, but then I read the whole thread and now I think I must have misunderstood. From your quote above, I got the idea that the schools were teaching literature (albeit indirectly, by having well-written books in the school library) written by and about gay/lesbian people. In that case, yes, I am definitely for the teaching of literature by and about diverse groups.

Does this mean that they are making the teaching of (that is, about) homosexuality part of the curriculum for say, second graders? I'm not sure that it does, unless of course they added another required course specifically devoted to the study of the gay/lesbian lifestyle (whatever THAT is.) In that case, I am against it, because I am seeing the effects now on my own teens of having taken course after course that was added to the curriculum for political (correctness) reasons, at the expense of the basics.

Cindy, you know that I am not against the study or practice of homosexuality (or heterosexuality for that matter.) When my daughter and her friends all joined the after-school Rainbow (gay/lesbian) club, I appreciated that the school afforded them that opportunity, and I honestly think that it made them more tolerant of each other.

But I have a 16 year old who never learned long division until I showed it to him, and an 18 year old who's never had to craft an outline before writing an essay, and they both went through school in one of the top districts in this state.

I now wonder if the time they spent in such classes as "Parenting," "Consumer Ed.," and "Nutrition For Life," (which all sounded like admirable classes at the time) might not have been put to better use.

(I'm not really the crank I must sound like here, I am just confused and disappointed by the results of having sent my kids to what were supposed to be "good schools.")

[hadassahchana[$]]

Julie, I do know what you mean, and I agree. I am homeschooling for English subjects this year for just that reason - I want my children to be able to multiply, do fractions and use a dictionary.

However, in Ontario, there will be no curriculum change, only some works of fiction added to the library. However, the province has just decided to leave it to each school board plus a parent advisory committee.

Should a few parents be able to make such decisions for all children? Should parents be involved in this?


Cindy

[pluckyduck]

Between Julie and Cindy and the issue, we've managed to hit at least two of my hot buttons here:

1) I don't want or need schools teaching my kids values excessively. I think it is completely appropriate, for instance, for them to spend time and effort on reducing hate/bullying/sexual harrassment that takes place within the walls of the school, but they can leave a lot of the other lifestyle things out, thank you very much, I'll be parent here. I've just got two. I can concentrate better on it. Big "agree" with Julie and Cindy.

2) Now the issue -- Do not even start on somebody else's parents deciding what is appropriate to be contained in my kid's school library. It's a library. A library is a holy shrine to freedom of expression and an open window to the myriad of ideas in the great world. It's a place of wonder where kids get to explore "whatever", not be fed a preprogramed diet of Whatever the Most Uptight Member of the Community Might Not Throw a Hissy Fit about.

The only thing I would ask is that the librarian use good sense as to the age appropriateness of any sexual content (heterosexual or otherwise).

Now, would I feel that way if a few books with racist and/or sexist content got trucked in? Yeah, I would. I'm not afraid of my kids being exposed to ideas that I don't agree with. I think I've been making a pretty solid case for my values the last nine years; let's see how they hold.

Did I rant enough?

Andrea

[poseidon]

2) Now the issue -- Do not even start on somebody else's parents deciding what is appropriate to be contained in my kid's school library. It's a library. A library is a holy shrine to freedom of expression and an open window to the myriad of ideas in the great world. It's a place of wonder where kids get to explore "whatever", not be fed a preprogramed diet of Whatever the Most Uptight Member of the Community Might Not Throw a Hissy Fit about.

So are you saying that you'd not have a hissy fit if the elementary school library made available Penthouse and other "adult" material?

I don't think I'd find that appropriate for an elementary school. It's not allowed to be sold to minors, why would you provide it to them in that manner?

[pluckyduck]

Jeff, sweetie....

The only thing I would ask is that the librarian use good sense as to the age appropriateness of any sexual content (heterosexual or otherwise).

Nevermind?



Andrea

[jnbmoore]

Cindy,

You did call this what schools should teach notwhat books should be in the library

So I'll admit I did answer the title question more

All, as for the bullying and the name calling

it's always wrong. Lots of time it's ignorance -- heard on tv on something. In Taiwan I always did an AIDS talk/tolerance talk if one kid called another one gay or a fag. Even though it was ESL they'd pick those words out of US movies. They also equated the two so that's the reason I had to do both.



Bridgette
who can think of many a name I was called -- it doesn't help to be more academic than atheletic, overweight, glasses, mom wouldn't let you wear jeans and have nasty initials. Now my initials are BM, as a kid I was BO

no wonder I always initial things BMOM......

[mtbat]

This is a pretty sticky subject-

I think that okay, in highschool-maybe it's okay to have pro-homosexual books in the library-

In middle school-Maybe-maybe not-I'm not sure

In grade school? absolutly not. Children do not need to be taught all about any type of sexuality at that young an age. Most schools start sex-ed around 7th grade-middle school-and yes, at that point I think that it would be appropriate to include possitive information regarding differernt sexualities-but not specifics.

I think parents who advocate teaching their young children about human sexuality of ANY kind need to proceed with extream caution. -here is a real life example-our old neighbors split up and she went to live with a girlfriend. her daughter is a couple of years older than mine, so I didn't really know what had happened until another parent told me that S-the daughter had come up to her son on the playground and told him(in 2ed grade mind you) that her mother had a girlfriend and then proceeded to tell him EXACTLY in DETAIL what her mommy and her mommy's girlfriend did together. needless to say, the boys mother wasn't very happy-so far as she was concerend, explaining to her son what two lesbians do together was something that 1-she or her husband should have done-and 2-was totally inappropreate for that particular age group.

I have friends who are gay, neighbors who are gay(a different couple than the ones in the last paragraph) and relitives who are gay-I may not agree compleatly with their choices but I still respect and love them. It's their lives. of course, trying to explain to a 6year old why cousin richard has a boyfriend wasn't easy.

If done tastefully, if done at an age appropriate level I wouldn't have a problem with gay/bi/lesbian lit in schools.

[patach]

When I went to Catholic School, they did have a section that talked about homosexuality in health class. I admire what they taught, since they didn't show any prejudice, nor special support to homosexuality, just simply treating it as if it was as normal as hetrosexuality.

But when it comes to sex, I think the best teachers are one's parents. I don't know, but going face to face with your child and telling them about how everything works seems more safe than having a teacher who just want their next pay check to do it.

[frazzledspice]

When I spent my years as a KoolAid SAHM and held every PTA office (when my boys were in elementary school in NY), there were PTA representatives on facilities committees, curriculum committees, etc. When our school needed a new principal, a PTA committee interviewed the three final candidates.

I don't see how reviewing books that might be placed in a school library is any different from the aforementioned committees. Parents were advisors, giving feedback and input. They did not have veto power.

[hadassahchana[$]]

The books in question were not at all sexually explicit- they wre more on the order of 'Heather Has Two Mommies' kind of thing. I agree that teaching any elementary school child about sexuality is not really appropriate for schools. How parents might want to handle this is another matter.

Bridgette, I'm sorry- of course you answered the question. What I really am most interested in is whether or not schools should be t4eaching tolerence, whether we should expect them to create a 'beautiful society' for us, or whther that right is exclusively the parent's.

I can see being comfortable with this decision- but wouold I like it if schools taught other ethcs that perhaps I don't approve of? I'm not sure, therefore if this is a great idea whose time is long overdue, or whether it is going to lead to schools taking over other parenting ro;les as well.

Cindy

[jnbmoore]

Originally posted by hadassahchana
I can see being comfortable with this decision- but wouold I like it if schools taught other ethcs that perhaps I don't approve of? I'm not sure, therefore if this is a great idea whose time is long overdue, or whether it is going to lead to schools taking over other parenting ro;les as well.

Cindy you know I still love you alot.

Let's look at the other "parenting" roles the school already has:

sex ed

driver's ed

drug ed

conflict resolution

gang ed

around her in Dec I'm told I can teach Hannankah, Rammadan, and Santa but no Jesus (and this is with adults)

feeding and clothing at times

character development (honesty, respect, trustworthiness, etc are in our curriculum -- same school district with creative spelling and calculator in elementary school)

Hmm, if the kids could sleep there the school could just take over as parents....

Bridgette

mmm, if PETA got in to the schools then they could go completely vegan; but if the cattle farmers got in we could have meatloaf daily -- wonder who will win

[hadassahchana[$]]

Good heavens! I really do live a sheltered life! I had no idea that schools teachall of those things- I'm really pretty sure that I wouldn't like that. After all, the schools weren't around when I was in labour!

Cindy

[drmomentum[$]]

Originally posted by hadassahchana
The books in question were not at all sexually explicit- they wre more on the order of 'Heather Has Two Mommies' kind of thing. I agree that teaching any elementary school child about sexuality is not really appropriate for schools. How parents might want to handle this is another matter.

At a young age kids learn about families. It seems appropriate that they should learn that there are all sorts of families - single parent families, close extended families, same-gender couple families. None of that has anything to do with things that go on in an adult's bedroom behind closed doors. But family structure is something that varies and education about this helps nurture tolerance.

-JP

[jnbmoore]

Don't know if I'll find a link but a few months ago they were TALKING about lowering the minimum school age for kids in DC to THREE.

Basically it was kids were coming in not knowing colors, numbers, letters and the school could teach them. Plus there was something about the kids being more socially adjusted....


But when I read it I felt like they were saying "we can parent better than you can"


Bridgette
whose monkey knows her colors, numbers (english and chinese) and letters and is somewhat socailly adjusted though we are working on it "If you need to masterbate please go to your room, the living room is not an appropriate place"

[wivabef]

We need an icon with two pennies, cause I'm just going to pop in my two cents.

Idealistically, I would like to believe that parents would control the character education portion of their children's lives. Unfortunately, that is not the reality.

I think it should not be indoctrinated into the curriculum simply because character is not a black and white issue and cannot be written down on paper thusly:

"September: Make Suzy like gay people. Bring gay people into class to discuss their feelings. Field trip: Gay and Lesbian festival in Boston."

Yes, I am exagerrating. Instead, I would like to see tolerance worked into the context of curriculum, at the teacher's discretion.

"September: Study Holocaust. Get permission to show Shindler's list. Show documentary re: Pink Triangles. Discuss fate of Polish neighbors during initial stages of Nazi occupation."

I don't want a "Tolerance Week". We should teach our children that part of tolerance is dealing with it in the context of their lives. And a tolerance week is just stuffing it down their -- and their parents' -- throats.

I would also like to be able to have my child opt out of certain classes. I don't want schools teaching