Religion: That Big Ole Can of Worms

[Dani257]

Religion seems to spill into every thread, so why not start one about it?

Before we begin, I'm a Christian, Protestant, pretty conservative in my views.

1. Lets get probably one of the more controversial issues. Yes, I believe my religion is the right one. (I'm speaking of Christianity in general, not a particular sect) If I didn't why would be a Christian and not something else? For instance, I love Judiasm, (I'm always afraid to put it like that, because I'm scared I'll sound condescending or like it's some flavor of the month. I really don't mean to). I've always been fascinated with the customs and even have a Star of David that I wear. People always ask me if I'm converting, but how could I? I am a Christian. Btw, it always puzzled me when Christians do convert to Judiasm, umless they become Messianc Jews. I don't know the ins and outs of every Christian sect, but isn't the one thing they all believe is that Jesus is the Son of God? Do converts stop believing this? Not that not believing in Jesus is the main point of Judaism, either. Where was the point in this? Oh, yeah. I'm not going to tell you that you have to believe what I believe in, but I'm also not going to say they're all the same. That reminds me of someone I know who had a race chart. Modays: Creole Tuesdays: Hispanic, etc. I might as well say Mondays:Christian Tuesdays: Jewish. It is possible to be firm in your own faith without stepping on other people's toes.

Witnessing: I believe we're supposed to share the news of Jesus, but like Jeff and Bridgette have said, browbeating is not the way to do it. Besides, isn't it 'sharing' not ordering? I don't answer the door to Jehovah's Witnesses, and I don't like it when I'm accosted by people who try to sell me Biblical tracts. I kind of admire their bravery to go to people who may be hostile, because even if I did agree with their method, I'd be too scared. I think trying to lead a good life is an excellent example of withnessing. Especially if you find joy in your beliefs. Someone might very well ask you what makes you such a happy person and give you an excellent opportunity to share. (Not to say non Christians are never happy or don't lead good lives)

Sin: Let me use an example. I believe pre-marital sex is a sin. I do not believe people who have premarital sex arwe evil or going to hell. There are things I do, that other people would see as a sin. Heck, I can tell you right now I sin all the time. I don't expect people to have the same beliefs I have on this subject. You're not hurting anyone (assuming everything is consensual) . People might get riled up by my saying this is a sin. But, it is to me. Just like something I do may be a sin to you. Now if you murdered someone, I would have a very different view.

Christian Bashing: Yes, I believe it goes on. People take something a small group of people (or even a large group) to say 'this is what Christianity is like.' So, you have some wacko killing people in the name of God. You should not believe he represents Christianity. There was a book that said if someone went around killing people in your name, that doesn't mean you endorse it. So, if someone starts a mass killing spree in the name of Angela, I didn't tell them to do it. Some Jews are greedy. Some blacks are lazy. But, it would be totally wrong of me to say all Jews are greedy or all blacks are lazy. But, some people do seem to have the idea that all Christians are robotic bigots who can't think for themselves. I'm not accusing anyone here, but I HAVE seen this attitude other places.

To me, the basic law a Christian should follow is "Love God and love your neighbor as yourself." People who use hate as a means of promoting God may talk the talk, but they ain't walking the walk.

Man, I really go for the controversy, don't I?

[patach]

Oh c'mon! Not again! I already started a thread on it, so sheesh

And so... this begins WWIII.

Before I even scan any of these topics, I am a former Seventh Day Adventist, a fanatical Christian. I became an Ex Christian 3 years ago, I'm studying other religions, such as Buddhism, and Islamic, but keeping my faith in the Militant Agnostic field. :p And for the record... Satanism isn't as bad as people will think (in other words... it has nothing to do with Satan):

Witnessing: Though it's annoying. It's true. People are told to spread the gospel. I haven't met anyone that has been obsessed in this idea on epinionaddicts, so that's cool. Some people think that if they keep on bringing up how their religion is right though, they'll get some sort of brownie points when they see Jesus again . Of course, Christians should remember the damn quote in the bible. If your message is ignored, kick the dust off your feet and leave town (in other words, mention it once, and if they don't want to be like you... then get off our frickin' backs). However, I haven't seen much problems in the epinionaddicts.com place, so this topic can be hardly discussed.

Sin: I don't believe in Sin. Sin is the "wrong" part of the set of rules for Christianity. I don't like the idea of Sin, I think that the morality of it is just screwed up. But then again, I'm not Christian anymore, so I have no need to label anything as sin. Please be happy to use it if you like. :p

Christian Bashing: It would depend on the scenario. As of my "freethinkers" labelling. I was trying to make a point of that... if you are still offended from that Disney post, I'm sorry. I don't see ALL Christians being these Neo-Nazis that jump on top of people threatening them about how Satan is gonna butt rape them because of a little opinion. There are morons in every group. From Christians to Atheists. However, it almost seems you brought up "Christian Bashing" because it's the "spur of the moment" after that Disney post and a few others. As if Christians are the only ones that are being oppressed. Not to burst your bubble, but Christians bash others also. Just as others bash Christians.

Religious Law: My religious law... choose your path and live a good life. If you don't like that philosophy, choose another.

Man, I really go for the controversy, don't I?

You don't know what the hell you started. There will be a war in this thread. Just like every thread religion is pulled into.

[Dani257]

I didn't know a religion thread had already been started, And no, my comment on Christian Bashing wasn't because of what you said. I said I've seen it happen before in other places. I brought it up to cover all the basis I could think of.
I'm sorry if you feel this was directed at you. That wasn't the intention. And why is it the moment anyone says that Christians can be bashed (I know there is a fancier word and it's just slipping me by) people think they're saying they're the only ones? Yes, other groups are bashed. I've studied the Holocaust. I know it happens to others. And I don't know where you got the idea that I don't think Christians ever bash others. I just said it does happen to Christians. Saying that it does in no way means that I'm saying it doesn't happen to other people or that Christians are blameless. I get the feeling that if I had said that intolerance has been directed at Muslims, for example, no one would bring up the 'You're not the only one!" or "Muslims have been intolerant too!" arguments.

Besides, obviously this is a topic that people have strong feelings about. What better subject to put into the Soapbox? It would be pointless to debate whether the method of giving out Income Share makes any sense. We all know it doesn't.

Edited to say discriminated against were the words I was looking for in place of bash. Someone needs to implant a thesaurus into my brain.

[cristina1]

Yes, I believe my religion is the right one. (I'm speaking of Christianity in general, not a particular sect) If I didn't why would be a Christian and not something else?

I have no problems with anyone thinking their religion is the right one. I do have problems with people coming out against anyone with a different religion and telling them flat out - You are wrong and I am right and therefore you are going to Hell, or whatever way they want to put it. Feel what you believe is right, but dont condemn others.

I think trying to lead a good life is an excellent example of withnessing. Especially if you find joy in your beliefs.

I agree 100% with this. I seem to attract every weirdo who is out to do me a favor and help me find the way to God. I was to the point where I really thought there must be some secret code on my forehead that screamed "Save Me!" When I lived in Washington, it was so bad that taking the kids for a walk seemed to be an open invitation to every religious sect to stop their cars in your path to spread the word of God. (This was on a military post - not when I lived off post.) I hated to answer my door, I hated to sit out in the front. It was a constant never-ending stream of them. Now, had someone came up, started a nice conversation, spent some time talking about other things and then bring up their religion that would be fine. But to have a Bible thrust in my face in the middle of a walk put me on the defensive. (And no, I am not exaggerating - it really was that bad!)

Sin:

I think the whole aspect of sinning is so overused. I dont really believe in the whole sin concept. I dont believe in things like confession either. I just break it down into two things: good and evil. If you go out and kill someone in cold blood, that is an evil act. It is by no means equal to a little boy who sneaks a cookie before dinner, and certainly shouldnt be referred to with the same word - sin.

Yes, I believe it goes on. People take something a small group of people (or even a large group) to say 'this is what Christianity is like.' So, you have some wacko killing people in the name of God. You should not believe he represents Christianity.

To me, the basic law a Christian should follow is "Love God and love your neighbor as yourself." People who use hate as a means of promoting God may talk the talk, but they ain't walking the walk.

I am the one who brought up the psycho killing his family because he felt the Bible told him to do it in the other thread, so I need to respond to this. I wasnt Christian bashing, only making a point that anyone can justify their actions and beliefs through the words in the Bible. This person truly felt he was doing the right thing. No, he isnt representative of everyone in the Christian faith.

Yes, Christian bashing exists. Not all non-Christians bash Christians, just as not all Christians (Ok, I am having a hard time typing this word - I keep wanting to type Christina, probably because it is my name and its almost 4am - so any errors, please forgive.) anyway, not all Christians bash non-Christians. But, it happens all the time. I will be honest though - I really dont care what anyone wants to believe. Pray to the giant rock in your back yard if you want to. But if I get told I am going to hell one more time, I am going to assure my place by strangling the person.....lol. And no, that isnt a Christian bashing comment - just one bashing the brow-beaters

[Dani257]

I wasn't trying to imply that you were bashing Christians, Cristina (hows that for a tongue twister) by using your example. It just struck me as the best example of someone behaving in a non Christianlike manner.

[pluckyduck]

A few years ago, if someone said they did volunteer work for animal rights, I'd think "Isn't that nice.", and imagine them working for the ASPCA, protecting animals from abuse, or for one of those wonderful ranches/farms that take unwanted animals in and care for them.

With the advent of PETA, in all its inane glory, my first reaction now would be "Oh, he is he one of those animal rights whackos?" Thank PETA or thank the media attention given to PETA for making a good and noble cause seem absurd and extreme.

Compare a belief in fundamental Christianity to vegetarianism, for a moment. There are plenty of vegetarians who don't make a big deal about being vegetarians. If you have one to dinner and serve meat, they'll just quietly eat their peas, so as not to offend you. If the opportunity presents, they're happy to share why they are vegetarians, and, because they believe so strongly that it's the right way to live, perhaps urge you to consider becoming a vegetarian.

Run into a couple strident ones who tell you that you are going to Carnivore Hell for drinking milk? It might change your preception (unfairly) of all vegetarians.

The people who front for causes tend to be the ones foaming at the mouth the most, and the ones most likely to alienate others, no matter what the cause. (And yes, I believe that fundamental or evangelical Christianity is often conducted like a cause in this day and age, realizing at the same time it is much more than a cause to the people who believe.)

The trick for the educated or discriminating citizen is to not decide what a group of people who share a certain belief is like based on the foaming at the mouth "believers" who demand the most air time or attention.

And now, I must go back to bed. This was just a mid-night potty break.

Andrea

[drmomentum[$]]

Originally posted by pluckyduck
The trick for the educated or discriminating citizen is to not decide what a group of people who share a certain belief is like based on the foaming at the mouth "believers" who demand the most air time or attention.

So right, but so infrequently practiced when it comes to Christians, Jews, Atheists... well pretty much everyone.

I take people as they come. Let a person prove that he is tolerant, vs. self-riteous. Sometimes you can quickly sort the thoughtful from the annoying. Other times it takes longer as when someone is trying to be curteous but is really only condescending and patronizing (i.e. you can hear them thinking "what a quaint belief system" when they talk). And you simply steer clear of the folks who are waiting around hoping you'll say something they can use to feed their inner martyr. Not much constructive can be done there.

Anywho, take people on their own merits and the only way you can go wrong is when someone misinterprets a clear "I don't like you" as "I don't like all (Jews/Christians/atheists/rural residents/programmers...)"

-JP

[cristina1]

I wasn't trying to imply that you were bashing Christians, Cristina (hows that for a tongue twister) by using your example. It just struck me as the best example of someone behaving in a non Christianlike manner.

That is why I used the example also! And I just reread my post and cringed. I hope I didnt come off sounding like a royal bitch, it was just middle of the night, couldnt sleep, so let me make a fool of myself online time

I actually am a Christian, although most people tell me I am not. I believe in Jesus Christ, I believe in God. I do think as a child I mixed too many sections of the Christian religion and kind of made my own up along the way. I was baptized Greek Orthodox, married in a Catholic Church (first marriage) and then again in a Baptist church (second marriage) and in between all of that have visited many other different versions of the Christian religions. Although a lot is similiar, there are some distinct differences, and I just mixed and matched until I came up with something I can live with.

[poseidon]

Hmmm... Interesting thread.

1. I guess I agree with nearly everything that Dani said, so I guess this isn't opening up a can of worms for me. But the direction that the thread is taking is interesting nonetheless.

2. I believe that my religion (like Dani, Christianity, not my particular sect of it) is the right one. As Christians, we are taught that the only route to Heaven is through Christ. There are two options in the Christian belief system when you die: Heaven and Hell. Whether or not you think this is mean, cruel, nasty, unloving, whatever, it is the religion nonetheless.

3. Christian-bashing does exist and it does thrive on this board. People can choose to say, "Well they're Christians, they deserve it and now they know how it feels" or they can say that it doesn't exist on the boards at all because they don't want to see it. But, as I did in my example yesterday, simply substitute the word "Black" (or any other group, I just picked that one because it seems to be a favorite topic amongst some EA people) for "Christian" when you make a statement and see how nice it looks. If you're not willing to put it down saying "... Blacks ..." then you should understand that it isn't anything more than bashing against Christians.

4. I can't speak for all sects of Protestantism, but as far as I'm aware, Confession is a Catholic concept. One of the major points of Protestantism is the belief that there is no need for man to intercede between another man and God. Most Protestants would shy away from the notion of walking into a confessional and spilling your guts to a priest. While it's true that Christians are taught that if we confess our sins and ask for forgiveness that they will be forgiven, Protestants are taught that we only need to confess them to God.

5. There are some... "on-fire" Christians out there. I actually commend them and am also sometimes jealous of their strong show of faith (yeah I know jealousy is a sin). But, like any other cause in this world, I dislike the "in your face" attitude that people have -- no matter what they're belief. I think that certain "on-fire" Christians do more harm to Christianity than they do good. Just as I don't like when homosexuals thrust themselves upon me, or when PETA chews me out for wearing leather boots (now dress shoes -- see another post ), or when radical anti-abortionists shove a jar holding a fetus in my car window and want to discuss abortion (I am anti-abortion myself yet find that kind of "sharing" disgusting and appalling), I find people who want to thrust their religion in my face -- be it Christianity, Hare Krishna, whatever -- offensive and I don't want to hear the message, even if I support it.

6. Regarding sin, I can understand why you wouldn't like the concept of sin. Christians are taught that due to the fall of man, all men are sinful by nature. Sin separates us from God (see my previous thread where this for one of the various definitions of the concept of Hell). No one likes to be told that they sin daily, because it goes along the lines of telling someone that they screw up daily just at being human.

7. I'm not sure how someone can "prove" they are tolerant versus self-righteous. Most of the people I have stumbled across who tout themselves as "tolerant" are indeed self-righteous themselves, and some of them are at EA. Many of us have buttons that can be pushed and when they are, it's easy to see where the self-righteousness comes into play. Some of us in the Soapbox are stuck in a rut where we have to bring the same subject into every conversation somehow and it then becomes rather a self-righteous situation. These are people who I think are geniunely good people, but from what I've seen, we all fall into the trap of being self-righteous (in fact, I may be self-righteous in writing this whole particular response).

Right now I have to get ready for work because I've got a lot to do today, and I need to cut this short. But, again, this is an interesting thread.

Jeff

[theeye]

As someone who's taken a high wattage electric can opener to that can of worms here on EA, I just wanted to stop in here and say -- very briefly -- that I'll definitely have some responses to this thread.

I've backed off of another religious discussion to gather my thoughts a bit. I don't want people to think that I'm permanently abandoning that other discussion or that I'm deliberately ignoring this one. I'm not. But I don't want to dash off a response to either without some time to think it over.

And, as I'm currently suffering from a severe head cold, I also don't want to get involved while my head is even more fuzzy than usual.

That's all I really want to say for now. But I'll be back. (Take that as a promise or as a threat, as you see fit. )

-TheEye, who actually isn't quite so conceited as to think that everyone was sitting with bated breath waiting for her words of wisdom

[cristina1]

2. I believe that my religion (like Dani, Christianity, not my particular sect of it) is the right one. As Christians, we are taught that the only route to Heaven is through Christ. There are two options in the Christian belief system when you die: Heaven and Hell. Whether or not you think this is mean, cruel, nasty, unloving, whatever, it is the religion nonetheless

See, it becomes mean, nasty, cruel, unloving, whatever when you force the belief of hell on ME though. To constantly hear I am going to spend eternity in Hell for trivial things is just annoying. If anyone else wants to believe that because I let my kids sneak ice cream before dinner (even though my husband objects strongly) and not tell him, it will make me spend my after-life in hell, fine. But, the God that I believe in is looking down at me smiling.

So, the concept of hell is what you believe and that is fine. I just dont like it shoved at me when I dont believe that hell is reserved for anyone other than the very evil/bad. Just like I dont believe that anyone who goes to a place of worship every week is guaranteed a spot in Heaven.

[jnbmoore]

Originally posted by cristina1

Just like I dont believe that anyone who goes to a place of worship every week is guaranteed a spot in Heaven.

Geography --where your rear end is on a Friday night, Saturday, or Sunday -- doesn't guarrentee Heaven. Your heart does, IMHO

As for sin, sin doesn't automatically give a one way ticket down. warning: my belief views are talking -- so these are all what I strongly believe (Just don't want to have to add IMHO after every sentence)

Jesus died for our sins. He forgives them. I love the illustration that when you are before God and he looks at the book of your life and your sins, what he really sees is Jesus's sins which are nill.

Then again all sins are equal

Murder is a sin (but yes even that can be forgiven -- check out my epinion on Hostage in Taipei about a murder/rapist who I really think was forgiven)

(gonna get thrown out of the soap box for this one) I even think homosexuality is a sin. BUT so is hating someone just because they are a homosexual.

Abortion is a sin. As is killing abortion providers or hating those who have had them.

Me wishing a student wouldn't come to class cause they bug me is a sin (I'm not loving my neighbor as my self)

But then again the payment for all sins are equal to -- simply asking for forgiveness. A murder doesn't have to ask more than someone who hates his mother.

Once again the above proceding was just my two cents from my point of view. YMMV.

On another side note which is a bit more off topic, I hate the view point that Christians are serious and sober. I prefer to have joy. Luckily where we live we have a Christian station with two morning guys who do corny funny stuff to try to show folks Christians can and do have fun.

BTW Angela I didn't see anything wrong with your post. Where's the worms?

Bridgette

[Dani257]

Originally posted by jnbmoore


BTW Angela I didn't see anything wrong with your post. Where's the worms?

Bridgette

I'm anticipating them.

[erik_kosberg]

Will it be a Diet of Worms or Diet of Worms?

[vemartin]

Jeff,

Clear one thing up for me if you would (as long as we are on the subject): you claim to be Jewish, but you do not practice the Jewish faith, am I correct on this? Is Jewish a race of peoples, or a religious practice?

[Redlass]

You don't know what the hell you started. There will be a war in this thread. Just like every thread religion is pulled into.

Actually, we've had religious discussions here in the Soapbox before that were very civil, interesting, and respectful. It always saddens me when people feel they cannot discuss religion simply because the person they are talking to might disagree with them.

There are few topics that are as fascinating and multi-faceted as religion and have as much historical and philosophical depths to it. Some of the most fascinating religous discussions I've had (that have lasted until 3, 4 in the morning) have been with a friend of mine who is an agnostic.

I classify myself as a liberal, fundamentalist, evangelical Christian--and yes, I know what sort of alarm bells that sets off. I also realize that most people who see those adjectives will make stereotypical judgments about me that are completely the opposite of who I am. I use them anyway. Why? Here's how I define those words:

Liberal: The most important part of my religion is the command to love God and love one another. I believe sin to be the deliberate turning away from God. As such, I don't think homosexuality is a sin. I don't think pre-marital sex in itself is a sin (though it can sometimes be--but that's a whole other discussion). I believe that I should be dedicated to social causes and helping other people--even if those people are taking advantage of me. Their motives are irrelevant, mine are not.

I would also use the term liberal because I hold a rather unorthodox view. I think my religion is the right one for me. I also believe that God is bigger than my understanding and bigger than my knowledge. He's big enough that he can speak to many people in many different ways. Therefore, another person's religion is not the wrong one. It is the way that God reaches that person's heart. So I believe that all religions are the "right" ones. It is merely a matter of each individual listening to God's call--however that call is made.

Fundamentalist: I use this label because I believe the Bible is the word of God. I believe in creationism (and evolution for that matter). I believe there was a flood. I believe that the Bible is an excellent guide to a joyful and fulfilling life. I believe that if all of us lived by the precepts of the Bible, we'd be happier people and the world would have fewer problems. I also believe in the Bible as a complete work. I absolutely hate it when people take out individual verses and try to prove a point as it ignores context and perspective.

Evangelical: This becomes a tough one. I enjoy talking about religion, so I don't mind it when evangelists come to my door (except when I'm in the middle of something). If we're making dinner or playing a game, we'll invite them to join us. But I do understand that other people find this annoying. I like the vegetarian analogy that Andrea used above. It really sums up how I feel on this topic. I think evangelism is important. If you love someone, you want them to share in the source of your joy. When you see that someone is unhappy and suffering, you want to help. How do you keep quiet when you believe you have found an answer?

However, religious messages have been abused (most often by the people wielding the message) and mocked to the point where the words have lost their meaning. "What would Jesus do?" is a great concept--but it's become a fad with no meaning. "Born again" is an enriching, amazing doctrine, but those words too have lost their power for aught but ridicule.

I am evangelical, but the challenge I have made to myself is to be evangelical through the life I lead; to use words only when words are invited or natural.

Christian: Christianity is the way that God has spoken to me. I find so much joyfulness and fulfillment in Christianity that I couldn't begin to respond to God in any other way. I do believe that Christ died for our sins and that through his sacrifice, we can know God for eternity. Do I think Hell exists? Yes. Hell is the place where there is no God. The torments of the flesh are meaningless compared to the emptiness that exists when we no longer have any contact with the Divine. I also think we are in Hell only when we choose to go there--when we choose to reject the Divine and say we want no part of it.

Sin? Do I think we all sin? Yes. But there too is a miracle. It doesn't matter whether you are religious or not--you most likely believe that some things are wrong and some are right (otherwise, why would you be here debating things in the Soapbox). Indeed, we have a psychological diagnosis for those who don't believe in right or wrong.

The miracle of the Christian message is that it doesn't matter how many or how few sins you have. It doesn't matter whether they're tiny sins or big sins. All of them can be wiped away--no more guilt, no more reprucussions, no more accusations. You get a clean slate. They're forgiven and forgotten. Where else can you find that sort of regenerative power?

We bristle when we talk about sin because we think of it as a permanent label--as something that gets held against us and makes us into a "good person" or a "bad person." They don't. Sin is the common denominator for all of us. We just don't have to let past sin weigh us down forever.

Goodness, can we split this into several threads? There's so much to respond to!

[vemartin]

Here is my take on organized religion, now that you ask: I believe religion to be a construct of man to control the masses. It may have started out as a way to explain the un-explainable, such as how we got hear and what are those bright pin-points of light in the night sky, and why does it rain, etc., etc., etc., but in mans less than capable hands, religion quickly became a way for the few to control the many; the masters to control the sheep. It also became a vehicle from which those who found it hard to think for themselves and formulate answers to questions that vexed them, to have their questioned answered (or so they think), without much effort by those who (allegedly), have mastered the various books of God.

Religion also (supposedly) bestows upon the practitioner a moral code, which if he (or she) delved deep enough within themselves would find on their own. But that moral code only works as well as the human heart it’s vested in; i.e. no amount of praying and or Hale Mary’s can dissuade the person who truly wants to do evil. It take far more strength of character to do good then it does to perpetrate evil, and most human lack that strength on a continual basis.

The concept of sin baffles me to this day; its wrong to sin under most religious doctrines, but if you were to sin, God will forgive the sine if you repent. How doe that make sense? Under this doctrine I am free to sin as much as I wish, whenever I wish just as long as a repent afterwards. Where is the logic in that, and how am I truly dissuaded from sinning in the first place? Frankly I don’t think God cares how you live you life, just so long as you attempt to live your life without doing harm to others. In that mindset, premarital sex is not a sin, but something to be enjoyed between two consenting adults.

Religion remains today a shield, a cloak if you will in which to wrap oneself in order to deny others outside (and inside) the religion those things that all human deserve, namely dignity, respect, freedom, and equality. In that way religion serves to divide the human race more than it unites us. One had only to look at the past and present conflicts of the world to validate my statement.

Remember you brought the subject up, and this is just my humble opinion…

[Dani257]

Premarital sex to me is a sin. That means I personally won't partake in it. I have no porblems with anyone else doing it. I don't think they're bad people. Someone tells me they had sex the other night (why anyone would, I don't know) and I know they aren't married I'm not going to tell them they've sinned. That's personal. And I respect that they might not even consider it a sin. If I engage in premarital sex, I would believe that I've sinned and asked forgiveness.

God's forgiveness isn't a way of sanctioning sin. But, it's impossible not to sin (or if you prefer to do something wrong). It's like a father who still loves you even though you did something wrong. Does that mean he wants you to keep doing it? No. And, saying your free to sin as much as you want as long as you repent afterwards. Is that real repentance? I can go around stealing and then make a mental note: Repent next Thursday at 10 pm. How honest is that?

I don't think God goes around saying "Do whatever you want. I'll forgive you anyway, so it's all good." He wants you to try to lead a righteous life. feel free to take the term righteous in anyway you feel fit. But, He is smart enough to know that humans are fallible, and He is willing to forgive them when they make a mistake. I'd rather that kind of God than one who says "You did something wrong. Game over. Time to smite you down."

[evmori]

I just dont like it shoved at me when I dont believe that hell is reserved for anyone other than the very evil/bad.

___________________________________________________

I guess a definition of very evil/bad is in order.

Evil is an extreme. An unrepentent murderer would be evil. A person who takes office supplies without permission is bad.

I feel those who sin & don't ask for forgivness will go to hell.