Who is a Christian, and who isn't?

[drmomentum[$]]

The Gallup organization takes an inclusive approach. If you say you're a Christian they believe you (88% of Americans say they are).

The dictionary says "1. A person professing belief in Jesus as the Christ, or in the religion based on the teachings of Jesus. 2. A decent, respectable person. 3. having the qualities demonstrated and taught by Jesus Christ, as love, kindness, humility, etc. 4. Of or representing Christians or Christianity. 5. humane, decent, etc." (I personally like definition #3)

www.religioustolerance.com tries to also take an inclusive approach: "We accept as Christian any individual or group who devoutly, thoughtfully, seriously, and prayerfully regards themselves to be Christian. We include the Roman Catholic church; conservative, mainline, and liberal Christian faith groups; The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons); Jehovah's Witnesses and a thousand or so other religious organizations who have beliefs about Jesus, to be various forms of Christianity."

What's you're opinion? Do you have a litmus test for Christianity? Is a Christian a person who professes to be, or is a Christian found by his attitude and his acts? Do you object to or disagree with certain groups using the term? Or is it OK with you for anyone to use the term? If someone says they are a Christian, is it possible to deny them?

-JP

[CeeJay62]

Originally posted by drmomentum

What's you're opinion? Do you have a litmus test for Christianity? Is a Christian a person who professes to be, or is a Christian found by his attitude and his acts? Do you object to or disagree with certain groups using the term? Or is it OK with you for anyone to use the term? If someone says they are a Christian, is it possible to deny them?

-JP

Huge question. If someone professes to be a Christian, I have to take them at their word. God is the only true judge of someone's character and what is in their heart. I can quote you all sorts of scripture about grace and not judging, but it boils down to spiritual matters being a very personal and private.

I am sure there are a few business people who claim to be Christians to lure people in, then make a habit of ripping off little old ladies. I may not like them, I may not trust them, I may resent them for making Christians look bad and I will hope their rat bastard behinds end up in jail and I am certain their behavior is NOT Christian, but can I take their title away because I think they are claiming it falsely? Unfortunately not. That is a matter for God to handle.

BTW, there is the whole issue of shunning, or "churching" someone who is not living their life correctly, but to my knowledge it is rarely used (like never at my congregation) and is only for extreme situations. That still doesn't make someone not a Christian, it simply removes their membership at a particular congregation.

[drmomentum[$]]

BTW, I'm not trying to single out individuals here (i.e. "Elroy is not a Christian because I saw him rolling back his odometer, once!"). The quesiton is more general, like "That group in the next town is not Christian because they pretty much come right out and say they believe Jesus was not our savior!"

There is the question (and I guess I do imply it, rereading my post) of whether an individual is really a Christian or not. But you are right - you can't tell what is in a person's heart. So it is a difficult question when you are talking about an individual.

Whoo! Thunder here. Should I get off the computer?

-JP

[CeeJay62]

Originally posted by drmomentum
BTW, I'm not trying to single out individuals here (i.e. "Elroy is not a Christian because I saw him rolling back his odometer, once!"). The quesiton is more general, like "That group in the next town is not Christian because they pretty much come right out and say they believe Jesus was not our savior!"

There is the question (and I guess I do imply it, rereading my post) of whether an individual is really a Christian or not. But you are right - you can't tell what is in a person's heart. So it is a difficult question when you are talking about an individual.

Whoo! Thunder here. Should I get off the computer?

-JP

That's still a tough question. From a legal matter, since this country was founded on freedom of religion, there isn't anything you can do to about who uses what title for a particular religion (as long as it isn't obscene or doesn't violate any copyrights ). I don't want there to be a litmus test for a church using the title Christian, because I don't want my rights stepped on either.

For a practical matter, a church proclaiming themselves Christian, but offering up sermons trashing Jesus isn't going to draw a big crowd. Atheists usually don't seek out Christian churches to attend (I'm not even sure an Atheist would be interested in an anti Jesus sermon) and Christians will be offended and not return. Unless they are self funded and only want to operate for their own amusement, they will soon die a natural death.

Where things get thorny is the issue of extreme cults (I'm talking Waco here), that seek out vulnerable people, prey upon them and draw them in to a dangerous situation. They need stopped, but how do we go about setting up a commission to target and shut down dangerous churches? I don't think it can be done practically or legally. At least not before they have done immense damage and the other laws kick in.

[Redlass]

I would define Christianity about as broadly as the Gallup poll does. I don't think people even have to belong to a church to be considered Christians.

Yet, there are probably some people in the U.S. who take a particular label on themselves because it is what their heritage is. They are asked what religion they are and, if they haven't put much thought into it before the question was asked, answer Christian because their parents are or because they don't identify with anything else and Christianity is the predominant religion in this country.

I would generally think that somewhere in a group's doctrine that they should have the belief that Christ is the Messiah in order to wear the designation "Christ-ian." Beyond that, there's a pretty wide range.

Taking the question in a slightly different direction: How would you define a cult?

[CeeJay62]

Originally posted by Redlass

Taking the question in a slightly different direction: How would you define a cult?

That's the tricky part, I think very often you can't until it is too late. Once you get into the business of deciding good/bad churches there are constitutional issues involved and I think most people do not want the government involved with validating their religion whatsoever.
Specific examples of cults would be Waco, Jonestown and those space followers that all commited suicide together. A general description would be a group that brings people into a very controlled enviroment, regulates their income and personal possessions and restricts contact with people outside the group in an effort to control. Of course there are aspects (minus the control) of that description that might describe a monk or a cloistered nun (as far as my non-Catholic understanding) and that situation has positive results, so that isn't an absolute definition.
Maybe I just should have said I don't know

[poseidon]

To me, a Christian is someone who professes that Jesus Christ died on the cross for his or her sin and they try to live their life in a Christ-like manner. That doesn't make them perfect, it doesn't make them great, and it doesn't even make them good necessarily. It just makes them Christian.

But you're not a Christian because you've been baptized. Being a Christian, at least IMHO, is an active thing that involves faith and a real decision to become a Christian.

[drmomentum[$]]

Originally posted by poseidon
But you're not a Christian because you've been baptized. Being a Christian, at least IMHO, is an active thing that involves faith and a real decision to become a Christian.

So Roman Catholics aren't necessarily Christians, then.

How about children? What age can you become a Christian by this definition? Are you a Christian in training before you're old enough to make the decision?

-JP

[patach]

RELIGION AGAIN?! ARGH!!!

Fine, devil man, fine... I shall play your little game ::evil laugh::

Well, let's see, when I was a strong Seventh Day Adventist for 13 years of my life, I believed Jesus died for my sins, and the only way to get to heaven, was to worship him and ask for his forgiveness. I even tried to spread the gospel to other people, I felt so strong about it.

3 years ago, I became an Ex Christian. I left the church, I feel I have no need to be a Christian anymore. When I talk to my Christian friends about my departure from the belief, they pointed at me and said "I was never Christian". It's weird, since I prayed next to them, had faith with them, and thought in the direction of them for 13 years, yet they seem to say I was never CHristian. There is one verse in the bible that supports the "never Christian" theory. And there is one verse in the bible that says "there will be Ex Christians". Pick and choose, it's your book. But I thought it was sort've funny that "I was never Christian" even though for 13 years, I felt Jesus was fighting with me side by side. Just as I see now, God (or who they shall be) is guiding me down my path.

What I think a Christian is? Who ever worships Jesus as God. There is so many sects, that it's easier just calling them all Christian simply because of that one idea they all enjoy.

Now that it's over, who here is ready for a nice debate of which french fries are better? Mcdonalds' or Burger King?

[poseidon]

Originally posted by drmomentum


So Roman Catholics aren't necessarily Christians, then.

How about children? What age can you become a Christian by this definition? Are you a Christian in training before you're old enough to make the decision?

-JP

Excellent questions, JP. If you're Catholic by birth yet haven't accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, then no, my definition would not state that they are Christians. Being Christian is an active thing, not a passive thing.

Children become Christians when they are old enough to make the decision to believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. That age depends on the kid and when he/she decides to make that decision.

I don't see anywhere in the Bible where there is something called a "Christian in Training."

Jeff

[frazzledspice]

Most Christian churches would say that an initiation rite, whether it be the rite of baptism or an open acknowledgment of Jesus as Lord and Savior, is a requirement for someone who calls himself a Christian.

I think that if a person has truly experienced God's presence in his life, his life, perceptions and actions will be changed, although perfection is an unreachable goal for all of us.

The challenge for churches today is finding ways to help people experience God's presence. Having moved around quite a bit in the past six years, I've discovered that the most successful churches have caring communities (because people are God's hands and feet on earth) and a sense of ministry. Good liturgy is important, too, but not as important as fellowship.

As a 'seasoned' adult, I often listen to young people who are going through a stage where they say, "I believe in God but I don't believe in organized religion." I was that way myself when I was in my twenties. Later I learned that if you want to meet God, the places you're most likely to find him are in places like churches, mosques, synagogues, and other houses of worship.

But there is no doubt that a church where the essence of God's word is not lived by the majority of its members can do far more harm than good to fledgling believers.

[poseidon]

I learned that if you want to meet God, the places you're most likely to find him are in places like churches, mosques, synagogues, and other houses of worship.

But there is no doubt that a church where the essence of God's word is not lived by the majority of its members can do far more harm than good to fledgling believers.

I couldn't agree with you more.

[conradd]

Originally posted by Redlass
I would define Christianity about as broadly as the Gallup poll does. I don't think people even have to belong to a church to be considered Christians.

I agree with Bridgette; Christianity has much more to do with relationship than with religion. If an individual has accepted Jesus as the risen Son of God and believes, then it seems to satisfy the requirements outlined in the New Testament. I've followed the discussion with some interest . . . if people profess to be Christians but continue to live a sinful lifestyle, are they "really" saved? Dunno. It's up to God. I'm more concerned with the beam in my own eye.

There are deathbed conversions, folks who live a horribly degenerate lifestyle for years and years only to accept Jesus at the end of life. From my perspective, they're just as saved (as long as it is a genuine conversion - again between them and God) but they are missing out on a lot of joy. However, everyone takes a different path. I'm a joyful Christian, I know what my life has been like apart from God and what it is like with God, and while I respect the right of each person to believe as he or she wishes, this path is right for me. Further, it's not my call to question whether other religions are right or wrong. Again, it's up to God.

Should you go to church to find God? Sure, that's a good place, but it's not the only place. I can find him in my kitchen, yard, walking down the street. He's not moving but if we want to know he's there, we need to be open to his presence. Plus, Jesus hung out with the sinners - some of the best times I've had have been when I put my preconceived ideas aside and go where the need is. This can be in my son's high school or walking down the street or stopping in a convenience store for a soda. I go to church to get renewed and filled up again, but as others have noted, Christians are commanded to go out and spread the word. I do that every day, and I've never hit anyone over the head with my Bible.

Handing out McDonalds gift certificates instead of cash to the street corner beggars along with a laugh and a friendly word, giving a young woman whose car has broken down a ride to her destination, complimenting the kid with multiple piercings on how cool his Atomic Blue hair turned out, slipping a few bucks to the mother in front of me in the checkout line who doesn't have enough food stamps to pay for groceries . . . these are just a few ways to evangelize without ever overtly mentioning religion. It's all about relationship anyway; we all crave and need it. Person-to-person relationships are great (and marriage is a metaphor for God-to-person relationship), but the best is a relationship filled with pure love. I've never found that anywhere else but with God.

As a trained analyst who is well-versed in quantitive methods of data gathering and analyzing, I have concluded that faith simply cannot be analyzed in the same way that other things can. My relationship with Jesus is as real as with my son. Ask me for specifics, I can describe my feelings. I hope to have more answers in eternity. Right now, it is enough that it is.

Taking the question in a slightly different direction: How would you define a cult?

When the focus of worship changes from God/Jesus/Holy Spirit to a man or a set of man-made rules, no matter how well-intentioned.

Deb

[roymeo]

Well, back in philosophy 201, here's what we basically came up with as Christian:

Did Christ literally rise from the dead?

Was Christ literally some sort of physical, incarnate form of God? (this one's a little tricky, because you lose a lot of people if you just say "son of god" cause that's just a goofy concept for a non-corporeal meta-being...so leave open the exact form of the whole avatar, partial being, etc. stuff and just ask if this Jesus dude really was somehow more than an ordinary human being because of this deity connection)


and I think there was one more....but it wasn't a biblical thing....there's way too many issues with the Bible to exclude people who have issues with it's literal autheniticy.


I've found I've ended up making friends realize that maybe they aren't really Christians because they really sort of fail some of the basic tests... Thinking that Jesus was a good guy with some really good ideas....


Then again, I believe our professor pissed off a lot of people in class that day he said "The majority of Christian Theologians do not believe in the literal trancendence of Jesus Christ."

So maybe that first one doesn't count.

roymeo

[ThePirateKing]

Being a Christian is not like being a Boy Scout or a Mason--Christianity is fragmented, with no single person or governing body dispensing the Official Stamp of Approval. With that in mind, I'm willing to accept as a Christian anyone who identifies as such; it doesn't matter whether I agree with his or her specific sub-definitions.

IMHO, there is a difference between being a Christian and acting like a Christian. Many people (myself included) fail to live up to their own standards of belief on a daily basis because they are human and fallible, and they let things get to them. They may be Christians, but they don't always act the part. It's one of the downsides of being human. (That and the whole "mortality" thing...)

[jankp]

I couldn't agree less with fraz. I'm a good person with no vices who loves to help people or make them smile, yet I haven't needed organized religion in several years. I worship life and try to be as creative and compassionate as possible because that's the most enjoyable way to live. I don't call myself a Christian, just spiritual. That's all that matters. :-)

Jan

[Redlass]

Perhaps the reason I accept the broad-based definition of Christian is this:

I would much rather someone identify themselves as a Christian, no matter what their level of commitment or faith is, than for someone to be told that they are not a Christian and to be pushed outside of what they would have otherwise accepted.

On another point, I agree that churches, synagogues, mosques, discussion halls, etc. are great places to find God. I even think they play an important role in refreshing all of us. I simply don't think they are the only place to find Him (which I don't think anyone in this thread has said or believes), and I don't think that an unchurched person is any less religious or spiritual than someone who is churched.

[mnehr]

I don't believe that being Christian has anything to do with any special 'mantra' that people must chant, or the typical Sunday-school confession, or other magical spell that must be invoked.

I go to what Jesus said (I cannot remember the verse now, but I will look it up later) It was when the rich man asked how to get into heaven, Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself, and love the Lord your God with all your heart.

This is what I believe it is to be Christian.. it is to Love by the example the Christ Loved. We all are going to slip, goof, 'sin' etc.. but what is our heart's motives. This is something really between that person and God..

I sure as heck don't think that chanting some prayer makes one a Christian.

I do believe it is important to distinguish between the term Christian as a political/religious movement and Christian in terms of following the example of Christ.

Many people have done many things in the 'name' of Christ, and I believe it is far from Christian... many Churches take on the name of Christian, yet their whole motive is either to control or to make money... again, I do not see anything Christian in that..

This is just my humble opinion.... I hope people will distinguish between the two uses of the title I pointed out...

[mnehr]

I learned that if you want to meet God, the places you're most likely to find him are in places like churches, mosques, synagogues, and other houses of worship.

I have to strongly disagree here.. I feel that you meet God most when you are out in nature. All of the places you described are man's creation for where they think God should reside. I personally find more of God in his creation and his design.

I believe there is a quote in one of the Gnostic Gospels (I believe the Gospel of Thomas) that says something like '..if you want to find me, do not look in buildings made of wood or stone, but look under a rock, look at a branch, look at the fields, and there you will find me...'

They used a little of this quote in the movie Stigmata, but I remember finding this many years before....

[AuntieEmma[$]]

Originally posted by frazzledspice
Later I learned that if you want to meet God, the places you're most likely to find him are in places like churches, mosques, synagogues, and other houses of worship.

I'm not sure that's exactly the same across the board -- I think the emphasis is different in different religions.

My understanding of Christianity is that the most important thing is find Jesus in your heart.

If I'm misstating anything, I hope someone will correct me. I'm Jewish/agnostic, and don't really know what I'm talking about when I talk about Christianity.

Anyway, my understanding is that Judaism and Islam are different from Christianity in that the emphasis is more on following certain practices.

Again, if I'm misstating -- and theeye, for one, knows a whole lot more than I do about this part of the discussion -- I hope someone corrects me.

What it reminds me of is a picture I saw in a psychology textbook where a guy was running away from a bear. The caption says "Is he running because he's afraid, or is he afraid because he's running?" The pont being that we often think of actions being the result of emotions, but it can also work the other way around, where emotions are the result of actions.

So in Christianity, my understanding is that if you love God, then the appropriate actions will follow. But in Judaism (and I think Islam, though I know even less about that than about the other two), it's the other way around. The important thing is to perform the right actions -- to say the right prayers in the right ways at the right times -- and the idea is that from that kind of daily observance, feeling love for God will eventually follow. The prayers don't necessarily have to be in a synagogue or mosque, but there are certain requirements. In Judaism, it's being in the presence of a certain number of other people (actually, not people generally, but men, but that's a whole other topic) and in Islam (I think) it involves things like facing Mecca and bowing down. Judaism also is very home/family based, so that there are many observances that are to be performed at home, not in the synagogue, but it's the same kind of thing in that the observances come first, and then the feeling emerges out of that. So you can say prayers and be distracted and not really have your heart in it, and that's ok, as long as you say the prayers on a regular basis, because it's that regularity that creates a bond with God (kind of like a marriage -- you may not feel great love for your spouse every single minute, but it's the being together over time that binds you together). In Christianity, my understanding is that when you pray, your heart should be in it, otherwise it doesn't mean very much.

Anyway, I've gotten way off topic here (not to mention muscled my way into the Christianity thread), but I'm saying all this because the phrase quoted at the top, "places like churches, mosques, synagogues, and other houses of worship," struck me as equating things that are not completely identical.

If my understanding of Christianity is correct, it makes sense to me that some people here are saying they think it's important to go to church because that's where they feel closest to God, and other people are saying it's important for them to be in nature, because that's where they feel closest to God.

Personally, I'm more of a nature person, and I feel most "spiritual" when I'm in places of great beauty. If I were Christian, I could say that's where I find God, but as a Jew or a Jewish agnostic, or whatever it is that I am, it doesn't really count in the sense that it doesn't absolve me in the least from performing the observances that God commands me to perform, or that I would believe that God commands me to perform if I were more religious than I am.

(Sorry if this was too off-topic. Personally, I find it fascinating to compare religions, but that may be just me.)

[CeeJay62]

Originally posted by AuntieEmma



So in Christianity, my understanding is that if you love God, then the appropriate actions will follow
Personally, I find it fascinating to compare religions, but that may be just me.)

If you love God and are open to growth, the appropriate actions follow. There has to be a willingness on the part of the individual, as well as actions (such as prayer and scripture reading), but they aren't requirements for becoming a Christian, simply accepting Christ is enough.
There is reference in the Bible to individuals that accept Christ, but stay baby Christians, not trying to grow. Different denominations have different names for the growth process (Santification is one), but that is very personal and the only one who truly knows where an individual is at is the individual themselves (and probably their spouse, if there is one).

I also like to compare religions, I think learning about other faiths is a great help in understanding your own and can often provide a new way of looking at life.