Equal Treatment for Offenses

**drmomentum**[$] · #1 08-24-2001, 02:12 PM

I don't think it's particularly useful to single out the Bush daughters for their behavior. Sure they are making mistakes, but many other people make the same mistakes.

On the other hand, and by the same token, I believe that they should not be getting special treatment for their offenses. To put it another way, if people feel they need to be treated with compassion (i.e. not being put in jail for their teenage drinking offenses) then why do your children and others not deserve the same compassion?

It appears that the Bush daughters were indeed given special treatment and not made to endure jail while awaiting bail as other teenagers must do and have done according to Texas law passed by Bush himself.

Sure, some might say this is entirely predictable. And they are right. But the point is that we have people making laws that they purport to believe in, that supposedly work for us yet that don't apply to them. Further, we have a claim of a compassionate approach to governing - yet we only see true compassion exercised when friends and relatives are involved.

Might we have a better society if all people were treated with compassion like these children of privilege?

The story.

-JP

poseidon · #2 08-24-2001, 03:15 PM

I'd have to agree that special treatment shouldn't be given. But, I can make some guesses as to why the Bush gals aren't tossed in the clink -- and it all has to do with security. They'd need private cells in an already overcrowded jail, and IMHO that's likely not going to happen.

Jeff

**hadassahchana**[$] · #3 08-24-2001, 04:04 PM

I think that was part of JP's point- why do President Bush's daughters deserve a private cell? Why, in other words, ought we to be more concerned with their safety while in jail than we would be if this had happened to a 15 year old with priors who came from a single-parent family?

I don't think that teens ought to be in jail for offenses like this one. However, if it is the law, and if it is part of a get-tough policy instituted by Bush, then the two Bush daughters ought to get used to sharing a washroom just like everyone else.

Cindy

poseidon · #4 08-24-2001, 04:17 PM

Cindy,

I can appreciate what you're saying and in a perfect world, that would happen. Unfortunately, this isn't a perfect world, and unfortunately, the daughter of a president is "worth more" than the daughter of a banker, barber, baker or butcher. I'm not saying it's right -- I'm saying it's an unfortunate fact of life.

Why should anyone but the President get Secret Service protection? When my sister was in grade school, Jeb Bush's daughter was in my sister's classes (for several years). He wasn't governor yet, but his dad was President. There was a Secret Service officer in my sister's classes every day. Why should the granddaughter of the President of the United States get any Secret Service protection? Why should the First Lady? Why should anyone in the First Family?

So, again, I don't think that these girls would ever see the inside of a county jail cell simply because of security concerns. It has nothing to do with Bush using special power to protect them... I'm sure the Secret Service has more to say about it than even GW.

Then again, I could be all wet...

Jeff

roymeo · #5 08-24-2001, 04:52 PM

the son of Terry Branstad, former 16 (or was it 20?) year governor of Iowa got several breaks.

He was hot-rodding around Des Moines when he was 16 and killed someone in a collision that was his fault, didn't get charegd with anything.

Several years later, he got pulled over and they busted the guy with him for possession, but he didn't get charged with anything for the resinated bong in his glovebox.

The question isn't "do kids of these people get treated differently", but "what can we do to stop this from happening?"

roymeo

**hadassahchana**[$] · #6 08-24-2001, 04:56 PM

Jeff,

If I understand you correctly, the Bush daughters wouldn't be jailed because of the difficulty the Secret Service would have in protecting them.

I have to ask , though, where would they be less likely to be harmed by an outsider than in a jail? The security is pretty tight in most. I do realize that they could be in danger from other inmates. So would my child, G-d forbid, so would yours. My point is, then, that unless a young person commits a really horrible crime, like murder or rape, that perhaps being in jail isn't good for anyone's child.

Cindy

poseidon · #7 08-24-2001, 06:37 PM

Cindy,

Unless what I've heard about gang rapes, beatings, etc. in prison are a bunch of old wives tales, then I'd disagree. And from what I've also heard, women in prison tend to be far more violent than men in prison. Of course this is simply hearsay that I've heard from lawyers, etc. that I've stumbled upon in my own business.

So I guess I'm disagreeing.

Jeff

**hadassahchana**[$] · #8 08-24-2001, 08:03 PM

Jeff,

That was exactly my point. It is ok to try and protect the President's kids from kidnappers etc. However, it is NOT ok to try and protect them from any dangers inherent in being in prison, as everyone who goes in there is subjected to those same things. What I was trying to say was that if it is ok to place any child in that kind of situation, then it is ok to place the President's children in that situation. No special treatemnt for them.

Of course, I also said that I don't believe that children should be placed in jail except in extreme cases.

Cindy

poseidon · #9 08-24-2001, 08:21 PM

Again, I'm going to say that due to security concerns, yes, the Bush kids or any President's kids need to be protected from that sort of incident. If you can afford to toss them in a private cell, fine... but not with the general population.

You could still open up the kids to a hostage situation, murder, etc which would have the same ramnifications as kidnapping. It would seriously impact the ability of the President to do his (or her) job effectively, just the same as if the kids weren't involved in this kind of rather minor criminal behavior (what they're doing is misdemenor offenses, not felonies).

So, while the differences aren't fair, I still do see them, and I think they're likely necessary.

Should kids in general be jailed? That's up for another debate.

**drmomentum**[$] · #10 08-25-2001, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hadassahchana
I think that was part of JP's point- why do President Bush's daughters deserve a private cell? Why, in other words, ought we to be more concerned with their safety while in jail than we would be if this had happened to a 15 year old with priors who came from a single-parent family?

I don't think that teens ought to be in jail for offenses like this one. However, if it is the law, and if it is part of a get-tough policy instituted by Bush, then the two Bush daughters ought to get used to sharing a washroom just like everyone else.

Cindy

You hit the nail on the head with what I meant.

The security excuse is a speculation with nothing to back it up, (for all we know there were plenty of empty areas in the local jail, or at the very least an empty interview room) but to entertain it briefly:

Security for the president and his family is important, but I find it hard to believe that a group of law enforcement officials and secret service could not have solved this simple problem of satisfying the law and security. Security concerns are not meant to be license to flout the law.

As far as how much danger they were in from being jailed, and the danger of women's prisons - I don't recall anything saying that they were to be held in prison. There's a difference between a holding cell and a prison block.

-JP

frazzledspice · #11 08-26-2001, 09:15 AM

This reminds me of a certain private citizen who got arrested for DWI in Maine twenty years ago, when his Dad was a big-shot politician of some type or other--head of the CIA, Senator, VP to be....

It was buried so deep it took months and months to find after he'd run for President.

Do you think that he received any special treatment at the time because of his father's position, and the wealth and prominence of his family in Kennebunkport?

I do.

cristina1 · #12 08-26-2001, 10:19 AM

Quote:

It appears that the Bush daughters were indeed given special treatment and not made to endure jail while awaiting bail as other teenagers must do and have done according to Texas law passed by Bush himself.

I'm not saying it is fair or right, but come on. Do you think that if the girls were daughters of someone on the arresting police force, they would have had the book thrown at them? Do you think they would have spent any time in jail? Of course not.

This is nothing new going on and the Bush girls arent the first kids that ever benefitted from their parents' positions in the world. It happens all of the time.

Growing up, I had a lot of friends with influential parents. From the town judge's daughter to the DA's son. The high school principal's kid to a state policeman's daughter. Each one of them got special treatment in varying situations. It's one of the perks if you want to use that phrase. Not saying these kids never got in trouble, but the punishment was left up to the parents and not the legal systems. No permanent record of anything to follow them around. And this was all on a small town scale. I cant imagine if your dad is the president.

But anyway, the other kids might have had to spend some time in a holding cell waiting for their parents or whatever as per the law of the state. In 10 years, who is ever going to remember it? But I can bet that the Bush girls would still be remembered for being "alcoholics" and whatever else that they have been called. I think I would much rather spend the time in jail than have my picture splattered all over the national media and everyone in the country judging me. Are they really better off?
Maybe the ones with the best places are the kids of the police officers. Not only do they not get in trouble, but they also arent national news.

poseidon · #13 08-26-2001, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by frazzledspice

This reminds me of a certain private citizen who got arrested for DWI in Maine twenty years ago, when his Dad was a big-shot politician of some type or other--head of the CIA, Senator, VP to be....

It was buried so deep it took months and months to find after he'd run for President.

Do you think that he received any special treatment at the time because of his father's position, and the wealth and prominence of his family in Kennebunkport?

I do.

Yeah it also reminds me of some certain citizen who didn't even get arrested for drunk driving or manslaughter, it happened years ago, when sometime around when his brother was President.

Seems he got drunk and drove off the side of some bridge killing some woman in his passenger seat.

Do you think that he received any special treatment at the time because of his family's position, and the wealth and prominence of his family in Massachussetts and D.C.?

I do.

**drmomentum**[$] · #14 08-26-2001, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cristina1
This is nothing new going on and the Bush girls arent the first kids that ever benefitted from their parents' positions in the world. It happens all of the time.

Of course. Again, entirely predictable. I'm sure we could all tell stories. One local example is a bunch of kids including a friend of mine being caught violating a silly curfew at a local park. These were drug-free non-drinking A-student types just walking around. But the people who lived near the park were busybodies and called the police. They were all picked up and told this was going on their records, etc. Then when one of the kids turned out to be the son of someone "important" he had his name erased from the logs. It caused quite a stir.

But the point really isn't the special treatment. It's that the law and the treatment of these kids was stupid in the first place. The point in the Bush's case is not that his daughters are getting special treatment per se, or whether anyone else has ever gotten such treatment. It's that Bush passes laws to treat kids one way, but would like his own kids treated differently (it's just gravy that he himself has benefitted from skirting similar laws in the past).

-JP

evmori · #15 08-27-2001, 10:21 AM

Plain & simple - You do the crime, you do the time - no matter who you are. So the Bush twins get tossed in the general population. Maybe they would think twice about doing it again!

I don't feel jail time as a 1st offender for their offense is called for. I do feel the punishment should fit the crime. Maybe probation, a fine & community service at an alcohol rehab center would be the ticket!