Targeted Killing

[CeeJay62]

If you would have asked me 24 hours ago when I thought of selectively eliminating terrorist leaders, or rulers of rouge nations bent on harming our country, I would have told you I had mixed emotions. I understood logically that the death of one could save many lives, but the calculated aspect of such an act made me uncomfortable. It just didn't seem to be the way a civilized country behaved.

Now I'm all for it and if it turns out Bin Ladin is responsible for this (I've heard news reports saying they are 99% sure it was him) I'm wondering why we didn't take care of him years ago. I saw on TV last night (and I am aware there is a lot of bad information floating around) that we knew where he was for years after the 93 attack on the WTC, but lost him about a year ago due to advances in communication technology. Thousands of people might be alive today if we had stopped him when we had the chance.

Has anyone else changed their views on this?

[hadassahchana[$]]

No, I'm afraid I haven't changed my mind.

I have no interest in living in a country which does business this way. All those who would ought to take the next flight out at once. There are a variety of countries to choose from.

Somehow, living in Afghanistan has never much appealed to me.

If we begin the process of eliminating those with whom we do not agree politcally and ethically, if we abandon our proudest accomplishment as a nation, namely the presumption of innocence and the use of judicial means to resolve issues like this, it's all going down in flames- the entire country.

G-d save us all, from ourselves.


Cindy

[CeeJay62]

Originally posted by hadassahchana
No, I'm afraid I haven't changed my mind.

If we begin the process of eliminating those with whom we do not agree politcally and ethically, if we abandon our proudest accomplishment as a nation, namely the presumption of innocence and the use of judicial means to resolve issues like this, it's all going down in flames- the entire country.
Cindy

People can disagree with us all they want. I am refering to people who are determined to destroy us. We may literally go down in flames if we don't agressively seek to protect ourselves.

But I respect your opinion.

[poseidon]

I guess this goes along with whether or not you support capital punishment. I'd be curious to see if the lines don't run parallel as to who supports and who doesn't support state-sponsored assassinations.

I see this as a rather sticky situation -- one that could enter us into a war. You may look at Afganistan -- who protects this nutcase -- and say, "I have no problem going to war with them." That would likely be a bad assessment. The Soviets entered a very costly war that they lost trying to control the Afganistanis.

I happen to like the idea that we give people a fair trial, even if they commit very heinous crimes against tens, hundreds, or even thousands of American citizens.

At the same time, if this guy is killed during a military response, I wouldn't shed a tear for him.

But hey, that's just me.

Jeff

[CeeJay62]

Originally posted by poseidon
I guess this goes along with whether or not you support capital punishment. I'd be curious to see if the lines don't run parallel as to who supports and who doesn't support state-sponsored assassinations.

I see this as a rather sticky situation -- one that could enter us into a war. You may look at Afganistan -- who protects this nutcase -- and say, "I have no problem going to war with them." That would likely be a bad assessment. The Soviets entered a very costly war that they lost trying to control the Afganistanis.

I happen to like the idea that we give people a fair trial, even if they commit very heinous crimes against tens, hundreds, or even thousands of American citizens.

I have mixed emotions regarding capital punishment, leaning away from it except for Timothy McVeigh cases.

Bin Laden has already been indicted for the first WTC attack and the two embassy attacks. He hasn't received a fair trial because he is in hiding and being given safe harbor by other countries. One of which is Sudan, who sits on the UN Human Rights Commission (and we do not), but I digress.

What got me rethinking this is a couple of quotes I heard yesterday, which I can't attribute or remember word for word, but stated something along the lines of you can't defend yourself against someone who is willing to lose their life to end yours and you can't protect yourself against people who don't care about consequences.

The world is a much scarier place today and we as a country need to examine a variety of issues.

[wivabef]

My concern is that killing bin Laden will only make him a martyr, further empowering the Taliban.

Would that God would smite him with that proverbial thunderbolt. Even then, I am sure the Taliban and its operatives would blame us for that, too.

[erik_kosberg]

Let’s just remember that so far at least, there’s only speculation that “this nutcase” is guilty. If anyone has any real proof that Osmana bin Laden is responsible for these attacks, report it to the FBI. Bin Laden is already wanted for other crimes.

You may look at Afganistan -- who protects this nutcase

[vemartin]

Originally posted by hadassahchana
No, I'm afraid I haven't changed my mind.

I have no interest in living in a country which does business this way. All those who would ought to take the next flight out at once. There are a variety of countries to choose from.

Somehow, living in Afghanistan has never much appealed to me.

If we begin the process of eliminating those with whom we do not agree politcally and ethically, if we abandon our proudest accomplishment as a nation, namely the presumption of innocence and the use of judicial means to resolve issues like this, it's all going down in flames- the entire country.

G-d save us all, from ourselves.


Cindy

Cindy,

Make no mistake, the attack yesterday in which possibly tens of thousands of our countrymen we killed, was an act of war! How many more people would have to die needlessly before you would want to act? Should we allow this man and his terrorist cells to systematically destroy all out major cities before was act? What would you have us do as a nation?

Yes we have principles, but we also have a right to defend ourselves against threats from without no matter where that threat originates. It is one thing to disagree with my opinion, and my way of life, quite another to try and end it. That is what these terrorists are about; ending the American way of life. We must, must, fight force with force; we as a nation are left with o other choice.

[drmomentum[$]]

Originally posted by poseidon
I see this as a rather sticky situation -- one that could enter us into a war. You may look at Afganistan -- who protects this nutcase -- and say, "I have no problem going to war with them." That would likely be a bad assessment. The Soviets entered a very costly war that they lost trying to control the Afganistanis.

And (what a coincidence) a war they lost partly because we were providing, support, weaponry and training to Osama bin Laden and the Afghanis at the time. And even in hindsight, Orrin hatch has said he would make the same call . If, in fact, it turns out that Osama bin Laden is responsible, there is a complicated web of cause and effect going on here.

-JP

[juliette]

Originally posted by poseidon
You may look at Afganistan -- who protects this nutcase -- and say, "I have no problem going to war with them." That would likely be a bad assessment. The Soviets entered a very costly war that they lost trying to control the Afganistanis.

But let us not forget that the US (covertly at the time) aided the Afghani rebels in their fight against the Soviets. No one seems to recall that we in the US were instrumental in getting the Taliban into power.

Now more than ever, I think it should be remembered that we reap what we sow.

[poseidon]

1. Erik, this guy is a nutcase. How else would you describe him? It doesn't matter if he was part of this attack or not, he is a nutcase.

2. Vincent, who are you going to declare war against? Unless a nation actively participated in yesterday's course of events, how could you declare war against a nation? I see our congressional leaders and president, democrats and republicans, calling for a "war against terrorism." This is absurd. We've had a declared war against terrorism ever since the barracks were bombed in Lebanon back in the 1980s. These are feel-good words meant to pacify somewhat the American people and let us be proud of our nation and stand together.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for patriotism and saying whatever needs to be said to help everyone get together. But an active declaration of war against a nationless entity makes no sense.

3. JP, yeah I know it's a crazy world out there. Don't let us forget that we were thrilled to provide Saddam with all sorts of weaponry and ignore his war against the Kurds so long as Iraq hated Iran. Then they used weapons provided by us (and the Soviets, too) against us.

4. Going out and killing Bin Ladin will accomplish very little -- even though I'm all for it. Bin Ladin was trained by the United States militarily, was schooled in the United States, and while he is nuttier than a fruitcake, he is a fairly smart guy.

From what I understand, Bin Ladin already has a chain of command set up in the event of his demise to continue the work. There are cells set up in every part of the world, some as small as six or seven followers, so that his mission can continue. On top of that, killing Bin Ladin would be a tremendous undertaking.

Not only does he move around a lot, not only does he have sympathizers all over Asia, Africa and parts of Europe, but he has bodyguards that travel with US-built and US-provided Stinger missiles to fend off an attack by plane or helicopter.

I'm not trying to come across that I'm hopeless about this because I'm far from that. But reality needs to set in, and a lot of people who don't pay attention to world events are very angry today and don't have a grasp as to even who Bin Ladin is or what he has in his arsenal.

[CeeJay62]

Originally posted by poseidon

4. Going out and killing Bin Ladin will accomplish very little -- even though I'm all for it. Bin Ladin was trained by the United States militarily, was schooled in the United States, and while he is nuttier than a fruitcake, he is a fairly smart guy.

From what I understand, Bin Ladin already has a chain of command set up in the event of his demise to continue the work. There are cells set up in every part of the world, some as small as six or seven followers, so that his mission can continue. On top of that, killing Bin Ladin would be a tremendous undertaking.

But history has shown when we smack back, people back off. Kahdaffi (sp) hasn't done nearly the damage since we bombed his home and Saddam may run his mouth, but he has stayed in his borders since the Gulf War. It seems to me we just need to cast a wide enough net to get Bin Ladin and his top followers. I think with Isreal and Russia's assistance we could do a sufficient enough job to be put them on notice. Once we stop the central organization, and main source of funding I doubt the cells are mentally centered and organized enough to do as much damage as the group as a whole.

Thee biggest obstacle we face is what also makes us great. We are loathe to injure innocent civilians of other nations in order to rout the bad guys, I just hope we find enough of a balance to protect ourselves.

[poseidon]

Originally posted by CeeJay62


But history has shown when we smack back, people back off. Kahdaffi (sp) hasn't done nearly the damage since we bombed his home and Saddam may run his mouth, but he has stayed in his borders since the Gulf War. It seems to me we just need to cast a wide enough net to get Bin Ladin and his top followers. I think with Isreal and Russia's assistance we could do a sufficient enough job to be put them on notice. Once we stop the central organization, and main source of funding I doubt the cells are mentally centered and organized enough to do as much damage as the group as a whole.

Thee biggest obstacle we face is what also makes us great. We are loathe to injure innocent civilians of other nations in order to route the bad guys, I just hope we find enough of a balance to protect ourselves.

I think you're missing the differences. Yes, there is evidence that when you strike back, people back off. Yes, you have used excellent examples of this with Saddam and Kadaffi.

But you're talking a difference in a national leader who has some responsibility to his people and a religious nutcase who doesn't give a damn about humanity nor his own life.

If you shoved a gun at my temple and told me to denouce Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, I'd tell you to pull the trigger. I am 100% positive about this. I'm ready to die -- I know that when I die I'm going to heaven. There's no question in my mind about this. But, at the same time, I'm not wanting to die right now because I happen to enjoy living life here at the moment.

And I'm far from what I'd consider to be a religious zealot -- someone who believes that if you aren't Muslim, and not part of the right sect, that your life is as meaninless as a cockroach -- which is how many of these suicide terrorists believe. Bin Ladin is no different. He may actually be hoping that by killing him it will strengthen his cause.

What do you do in these cases? I'm not sure.

[hadassahchana[$]]

I guess this goes along with whether or not you support capital punishment. I'd be curious to see if the lines don't run parallel as to who supports and who doesn't support state-sponsored assassinations.

ACtually, although I am against capital punishment as well, it is for entirely different reasons. I am opposed to going off and whacking some guy without due process because at that point, we have dragged ourselves down to that level.

And vemartin said:

Make no mistake, the attack yesterday in which possibly tens of thousands of our countrymen we killed, was an act of war! How many more people would have to die needlessly before you would want to act?

If you reread what I said, I made no mention of not wanting to act- I said that I would not support circumventing our own laws to assassinate this man. Catch him, bring him to trail, (and while we're at it, why not prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is the one responsible? ) and then whatever punishment our courts see fit to give him is fine with me. Of course this was a terrible, horible midn-numbing thing. Our previous lives are all gone- no one can ever live in that America again. However, we can still behave like members of a civilized society - or, we can choose to throw off our clothes, put out our fires and swing from the trees. I am not personally in favour of deevolution.

Cindy

[poseidon]

Cindy said:

Of course this was a terrible, horible midn-numbing thing. Our previous lives are all gone- no one can ever live in that America again.

I'd hate to disagree with you because we tend to agree so often, but I guess it's okay to disagree.

I'm handling my life just as I did on Monday. I'm working, I'm eating, I'm sleeping, and my life is normal. Yesterday my heart cried out for the innocent victims of those events, as it does today and will tomorrow.

But yesterday I got my haircut -- on schedule.

This afternoon I'm leaving for Wisconsin for ten days.

Today I'm working. I've called my parents as I do almost every day just to say "Hello."

The same America that existed Monday exists today, unless you don't let it.

Jeff
who is feeling quite philosophical but doesn't have time... I need to leave and drop off my dog at a friend's house.

[CeeJay62]

Originally posted by poseidon

What do you do in these cases? I'm not sure.

I have no fool proof idea either, I'm just speculating on an idea other than nothing.
It is a very good thing it isn't my decision to make.

[evmori]

The Soviets entered a very costly war that they lost trying to control the Afganistanis.

Let's not forget the US backed Afganistan. Plus the Soviets wanted the land. I feel if we strike we should strike to destroy not to take the land.

[frazzledspice]

Would assassinating terrorist leaders be the course which would result in the smallest number of innocent people being killed, both Americans and Afghanistani, civilian and soldier?

Would causing disarray at the top of the chain of command result in terrorism's falling faster? If so, that's the way to go.

I don't think we need to fear that they would retaliate in kind. The strength of the Bush administration is in its depth; his second in command and advisors are far more capable than he.

[poseidon]

Originally posted by frazzledspice
Would assassinating terrorist leaders be the course which would result in the smallest number of innocent people being killed, both Americans and Afghanistani, civilian and soldier?

Would causing disarray at the top of the chain of command result in terrorism's falling faster? If so, that's the way to go.

I don't think we need to fear that they would retaliate in kind. The strength of the Bush administration is in its depth; his second in command and advisors are far more capable than he.

You know, I can't help but to notice that some individuals can't get beyond politics and take their little potshots. This is the third such one I've seen since yesterday's events.

If you don't like Bush, that's fine. But your statement about his ability is unfounded and baseless at this point. Of course, I'm sure that Clinton, the god (sic) that he was in some people's eyes , could have had this whole thing solved by bombing the shit out of a Chinese embassy or obliterating an aspirin factory.

Instead of rushing to judgement about something you've got no clue about in order to slam a president that you've never liked, why not do the decent thing, stand behind the man as our leader, and let us unite as a country instead of dividing ourselves up even further? And for Christ's sake, give the man a chance to investigate and decide the right course of action instead of making wrong choices like some predecessors have?

[erik_kosberg]

Originally posted by poseidon
I can't help but to notice that some individuals can't get beyond politics and take their little potshots.

Originally posted by poseidon
I'm sure that Clinton, the god (sic) that he was in some people's eyes

[cristina1]

The same America that existed Monday exists today, unless you don't let it.

Not for everyone. People are missing loved ones, people have no office to go to. People with views of the Manhattan skyline see something completely different today than they did on Monday.

I am far enough away that I can turn off the TV and let it all slip away from me. My cousin called me this morning crying. He cant handle it. He watched those towers come down yesterday. The same towers that he has been looking at each and every day since the day he was born. He watched as the first plane hit, then the second, then one by one they collapsed. It isnt the same as Monday for him. It wont ever be the same again.

I am not saying that life doesnt go on, because it always does. But yesterday's events will have a major impact on a lot of people. Although the daily grind will return at some point, what was witnessed yesterday will be with so many people for the rest of their lives.

[drmomentum[$]]

Originally posted by poseidon
You know, I can't help but to notice that some individuals can't get beyond politics and take their little potshots.

I think what Frazz was trying to point out, and I agree, is that we're not a bunch of robots behind some fanatical leader. Our country pulls together behind a cause, not behind a man whether that be some religous leader or the president. If we were to lose the president for some reason, our strength of purpose lies much deeper. And as a society that values democratic principals, we don't have all our power concentrated in one place.

Maybe that is just my interpretation, but that's the way I read it.

And as far as our criticisms and personal opinoins go, I think we shoudl feel free to continue to express them. I don't think Bush is particularly competent either, but even so I am pretty sure I will be 100% behind whatever action his administration takes. I doubt many of us are going to let politics get in the way of getting this job done.

-JP

[vemartin]

Originally posted by poseidon
1. Erik, this guy is a nutcase. How else would you describe him? It doesn't matter if he was part of this attack or not, he is a nutcase.

2. Vincent, who are you going to declare war against? Unless a nation actively participated in yesterday's course of events, how could you declare war against a nation? I see our congressional leaders and president, democrats and republicans, calling for a "war against terrorism." This is absurd. We've had a declared war against terrorism ever since the barracks were bombed in Lebanon back in the 1980s. These are feel-good words meant to pacify somewhat the American people and let us be proud of our nation and stand together.

Jeff,

For once I agree with Bush; no matter how long it takes we must kill terrorism once and for all. This is war, and our response must be coordinated and carried out as if it were a war. If it is proven that Bin-Laden is responsible and the Taliban refuse to turn him over, then yes they should be held responsible and punished accordingly. Might this mean declaring war against Afghanistan? Perhaps, but then they and the rest of the world will know we mean business. Enough nay-saying, enough trying to cultivate an understanding with the Arab nations that harbor terrorists. Either they wish to be part of the civilized community of nations, or they don’t. And it they don’t then we owe them no accord, and no respect. We should exact our justice swiftly and without regrets!

And if Iran, Iraq, Syria interfere in the slightest, our response should be swift, decisive and unambiguous, with the message that if you get in our way you WILL suffer the consequences!

And in the end we don’t just take out Bin-Laden, but his entire organization, and any and everyone associated with them. They need to be on the run, constantly afraid for their very lives; we need to hunt then down and exterminate them with extreme prejudice wherever they might be hiding. An nations of the world that knowin