I am a bad bad person, and definitely a bad American.

[roymeo]

and another version of the same thing, this one has more pictures, but doesn't have the green-mohawk German guy.

http://home.earthlink.net/~hankinhsd/thankyou.htm

Okay, I'll take one more stab at this, so please try to read and think about the whole of it, not just whatever part you want to pick apart to make me seem like some evil heartless piece of human offal. I've asked to have my name deleted from the membership list, so you've my word that I'm not returning, nor going to take any further interest in the proceedings here, or elsewhere, including epinions.com itself, alright?

1) On the day the tragic (note: I said tragic) events occurred, I felt a thorough sickness in the pit of my stomach, mostly from the fact that I could see a deed of this magnitude occurring years ago, long before the first attempt to level the buildings. I do not now, or at any previous time want such things to occur. I have at the heart of my being have a small altruism that rests in me: a respect for all human life, even those who would perpetrate such a venal disgusting deed.

2) Those responsible for the attack aren't in any fashion justified in what they did. The problem is, however, the rationale behind the attack is seen as reasonable to others, and will predicate other acts against your nation once your retribution is meted out.

3) Retribution is demanded for this act against Americans, agreed. However, I hope that the American public would take a moment to demand that any course of action taken by your government is reasoned and not driven by emotions; the place where things get out of hand. More importantly, that the people are made an integral part of the process, rather than just accepting decisions rendered by government alone. Ask the important questions, if anything, for your own sake.

I wish you well, honestly, and hope things turn out right.

With that, goodbye, Micheal

[roymeo]

and this is why I started the topic.


A number of you people are getting so fucking out of whack over this one fucking event. As if history has to start now because it was the US that got hit in a very visible way for once.

The crazy part is, that if you doubled the body count, but put it in the midwest somewhere, where no one 'important' lives, over half the country wouldn't particularly care.


Anyway, who's the next (possibly overly sensitive, but still you people!) to get run out of town?


shesh. so much for compassion and understanding, eh?

[hadassahchana[$]]

Ok-

First of all, Micheal was not "run out of twon" - and I sincerely hope that no one else follows him. Even in debating against ideas with which i don't agree, I feel that I am learning, possibly changing my mind on certain issues, and all of that has got to be healthy.

I wish that Micheal hadn't left- but no one was rude to him. People were attempting to answer his fairly provocative questions, to engage him in debate- and then he did a runner. I am not sure why, but as he knows, he is welcome here. As for leaving Epinions, that has nothing to do with this at all. At least, I haven't heard anyone make derogatory comments about book reviews or toaster ovens in here.

This forum is for people who wish to be here to debate the ideas and events which are shaping our lives at the moment. I think that even when it gets quite heated, debate is good. I haven't seen more than a few tempers flare up, and certainly not to the point of rudeness or personal attacks.

Roymeo, I was especially delighted when you started this thread- partly because I enjoy your posts a lot, and partly because I think it's important to hear the dissenting voices- they often keep the rest of us honest. I hope that we can all continue this discussion as well as others without losing each other- at the moment, I feel an incredible need to draw close to those who are dear to me, even if they are 'only' online- and I would miss you.


Cindy

[amykhar]

I am COMPLETELY and utterly confused. A wide variety of thoughts and opinions have been expressed on what happened last week.

Nobody has been treated badly in the discussion of the attacks, nor has anyone been treated uncivily. Yes, there has been some disagreement regarding what we should do, and why the events that happened transpired.

However is that not understandable?

I have seen some vigorous debates going on, and I have seen some illogical arguments completely dismantled. However, I have not seen anyone attacked for feeling the way they do about the attacks.

If you plan on expressing a point of view in a debate forum, you need to be prepared to defend your thoughts with facts and logic. In fact, if you are going to express ANY point of view, popular or not, you need to be prepared to defend it in a debate forum.

If you are sensitive to criticism or cannot express your thoughts logically, it is probably best that you not enter into a debate.

In the past week, I have seen many opposing ideas expressed. Some of them have been expressed quite well. But, I need to make something clear. It is the moderators job to ensure that nobody calls you an friggin idiot for expressing your thoughts. It is the moderators job to try to keep conversation flowing in the forums. It is NOT the moderators job to protect sensitive souls from a vigorous debate of the facts and issues at hand.

Amy

[pluckyduck]

I woke up this morning thinking about starting a “when good people disagree” thread, but, for now at least, I’ll post my thoughts on the subject in this existing thread.

Guys, we’ve barely even gotten started disagreeing yet. As each day goes by and new events unfold, we’ll often find ourselves at opposite ends of different issues, and taking a position point at every spot in between.

I don’t know about you all, but I find my own personal opinions about different matters warring with each other. I’ve yet to call myself a fucking idiot and I hope I don’t call anyone else one either.

Good people can disagree with each other, and still be good people. The grace with which you handle a dissenting opinion is a mark of character.

Andrea

[AuntieEmma[$]]

I sort of thought it went without saying that good people can disagree. I also thought that if someone (and I certainly include myself here) puts out something that's provocative or controversial, then it's an invitation for people to disagree and debate -- especially in a forum that's explicity called a debate forum.

I find it frustrating if, in the middle of a debate, someone says, well, y'all disagree with me so I'm just going to pick up my marbles and go home. Makes me wonder why I had wasted my time participating.

I had found this whole discussion interesting. Both sides here had been echoing things that I've been thinking, and debating it helps me clarify, among all my confusion, just where I do stand. As someone who's been critical of U.S. policy, a big thing I need to work out now is how do I react in this new context. I wouldn't bother debating someone who said we should nuke Afghanistan off the face of the earth -- I know I don't believe that, so there's nothing for me to work out there, and there's no particular reason for me to respond. Instead, I tend to want to argue with people whose thinking is closer to mine, but still different -- it helps me draw a line between what I believe and what I don't, and what I'm going to be willing to support, and not. And also maybe people who disagree can learn from each other. Well, sometimes that happens, anyway.

[Prepoia[$]]

There have been MANY interesting points expressed in this thread. One overwhelming thought occurs to me, however, as I have read it. Micheal said:

3) Retribution is demanded for this act against Americans, agreed. However, I hope that the American public would take a moment to demand that any course of action taken by your government is reasoned and not driven by emotions; the place where things get out of hand. More importantly, that the people are made an integral part of the process, rather than just accepting decisions rendered by government alone. Ask the important questions, if anything, for your own sake.

I wish you well, honestly, and hope things turn out right.

With that, goodbye, Micheal



along with his comments


I guess I've got it pretty good, not having a nation that for whatever reason, has had situations happen to create enemies, whether by our own acts or the acts of others. I just hope never to find myself at the point where a person or people become that level of threat. I don't ever want to be reduced to a representation, a symbol, to be manipulated as being good or evil, so someone can use that to hurt or kill me or mine.

The thought that keeps occuring to me is that we are not being singled out for attack ONLY AS AMERICANS. In fact, terrorist's acts have and are continually being leveled against all western nations of the world. Usually they occur in Europe and not on North American soil. As a proud Canadian, I would be a little uneasy to state that you as a country have not made enemies. First of all you are seen to be allies with the Bad Americans across your border; secondly, you are not a Muslim nation of this particular Muslims followers therefore you are automatically his enemy; and thirdly these attacks are leveled at Christians, Westerners not just Americans. Many of the Middle East countries make little distinction between your country and ours. It's possible that your country could experience terrorizm in all its horrific injustice, at any time just because you ARE THERE and not followers of this leader.

Like your friend stated about the Turks, we are vulnerable just BECAUSE WE ARE.

I believe that the Europeans that support the US are doing so because they have experienced these attacks themselves and know that no nation is safe. All nations makes enemies unless they are of no importance to the world. Yes, we have enemies. No, we do not always make sound decisions. But, I do believe that we make the decisions that we do make in good faith, first for the United States and then for the Western World in general. We don't always make Canadians (who, by the way are Americans because they share North America with us) happy with the choices made by the government. Your government probably makes choices that you don't like either (I remember the tax debate; the French question of Quebec's annexation; the socialized medicine) but you as citizens move on and still are pround to be Canadians. Many of our citizens disagree often with Washington's decisions, but we too move on proudly as citizens of the United States. Just because we are "Americans" doesn't mean that we can't or don't often disagree. Thank God we are allowed to protest and disagree. These freedoms that both you and your government and me and my government provide us with is the real enemy of bin ladin. He wants a holy war and therefore will find a way to start one.

Thoughtfully
Sandy

So glad to have a forum of open opinion, as it is the right of each of us to maintain our own opinions about world situations. (You notice the world, not US situations since many countries lost people in this attack).

[AmyLEnsor]

Originally posted by roymeo
A number of you people are getting so fucking out of whack over this one fucking event. As if history has to start now because it was the US that got hit in a very visible way for once.

The crazy part is, that if you doubled the body count, but put it in the midwest somewhere, where no one 'important' lives, over half the country wouldn't particularly care.

Yeah, that's why we didn't care about the Oklahoma City bombing where only 158 (or so) were killed. I mean, I know I never gave it a second thought <imagine sarcastic tone here>

I was distraught at the Gujarat earthquake that killed as many as 25,000 people. I remember being shocked and horrified as I followed that story, just trying to comprehend the magnitude of the damage and loss to India. I am shocked and horrified now that it looks like there are almost 6000 dead in the US. Especially since this wasn't a natural disaster, but a deliberate attack. It has far reaching implications and has the potential to change our lives significantly. It is big news--of course we are talking about it! I mean, come on, Clinton getting a blow job from an intern was a big deal, Gary Condit's relationship with an intern who is now presumed dead has been on the news and in the papers for weeks. The Pan Am flight that blew up over Lockerbie was a big deal! We talked about that for weeks. There are posters here who actually lost relatives in the September 11 attacks. I understand that you might not feel the same sense of grief as many others, but now it seems you are arguing that others shouldn't feel it either. The closer to home something hits, the more we respond; it's just human nature.

I respect Michael and his opinions, I was just trying to argue with one of his points that I didn't happen to agree with. I feel that Canada as a member of NATO and the UN and on the same continent with the US cannot imagine that it is immune from terrorism. That doesn't mean that I think his other points are valid. I certainly wasn't trying to pick him apart! I like him and hope he continues to post here.

[roymeo]

I'll admit that I went overboard, intentionally with that post.

Mostly just because I'm a spaz, but partly to make people remember that this 'togetherness that people all around the world feel" is a myth. I mentioned "thin skinned" in there, and started and deleted a paragrah several times about that end...decided to lose it just for the effect. Maybe michaelhead wasn't the only one with a melodramitc flair...

I was trying to rub in the idea that someone's being annoyed by this inability to deal with people who aren't willing to grovel and asskiss America for its ability to ....well....what did America do recently to deserve all this devotion....get hit by four planes. Is that something to praise? I have posted apologies on this board at least a couple of times when I figured out I was wrong, I'd expect that even people who are revelling in their own terrible, horrible, gut-wrenching pain and sincere deep felt sorrow can act decent on occasion.


And, shesh, every time I talk about a group of people, some person pipes in "Well I didn't ...."


roymeo

[wivabef]

Originally posted by roymeo
and this is why I started the topic.

A number of you people are getting so fucking out of whack over this one fucking event. As if history has to start now because it was the US that got hit in a very visible way for once.

The crazy part is, that if you doubled the body count, but put it in the midwest somewhere, where no one 'important' lives, over half the country wouldn't particularly care.

Anyway, who's the next (possibly overly sensitive, but still you people!) to get run out of town?

shesh. so much for compassion and understanding, eh?

Oh, I know this has already been addressed, and I know that Roymeo has kind of, sort of apologized (I interpreted it as "I'm sorry, you assholes, now fuck off") And you all know how much I use the F word in posts (hint -- first time) -- but I'm not going to pretend that I wasn't offended by that comment. And if someone has the gall to publish it, then they should get used to the fact that it can be cut and paste ad infinitum to demonstrate how utterly heartless it is (note, I did not say "patriotic" I said "heartless" -- big difference).

Let us parse it out:

"A number of you people are getting so fucking out of whack over this one fucking event."

Um, guess who's calling the kettle whack?

"As if history has to start now because it was the US that got hit in a very visible way for once."

Name ONE PERSON -- use quotes -- in this thread -- who even insinuated they felt that way.

"The crazy part is, that if you doubled the body count, but put it in the midwest somewhere, where no one 'important' lives, over half the country wouldn't particularly care."

The people in this country care about people ALL OVER THE WORLD. When disaster strikes, we respond ALL OVER THE WORLD. Somebody already brought up Oklahoma City. Ask the people in the midwest how they have recovered from floods, tornados. It's one thing to say this -- do you have any figures to back you up. I guess it wasn't a question on the Census, hmm.

"Anyway, who's the next (possibly overly sensitive, but still you people!) to get run out of town?"

Nobody said anything to Michael that was in the least bit inflammatory. He would have been a welcome member of this debate forum as we were -- omigosh! DEBATING! Just what were we thinking -- disagreeing in a forum entitled The Soapbox. I don't think it would be called the soapbox if we all stepped up on soapboxes and said "You are right and I am right. Am I right? Oh, yes, you sure are right." Talk about pablum. Michael didn't run out of town. He ate at the buffet and then left before dessert so he wouldn't have to do the dishes. The people in this forum have often come to blows -- we walk a fine line. But we welcome all opinions and have rallied around those we disagree with.

"shesh. so much for compassion and understanding, eh?"

Are you asking yourself this question, Roymeo? I don't think anyone in this forum has told you you're unpatriotic for not wanting to participate in the tidal wave of red, white and blueism. In fact, most of us have said, "whatever floats your boat". But does that mean we must stop waving flags? Does compassion and understanding mean getting belittled with unwarranted and unsubstantiated comments like your midwest scenario comment.

Big hint -- whenever you use "you people" -- expect even the untargeted to respond.

[conradd]

Yep. When I read Roymeo's post, it hit me the wrong way. I don't appreciate statements made (I'm assuming) purely for shock value and this one came across as if he had a particularly large and unattractive chip on his shoulder.

When OKC happened, people all over America were devastated. Remember back to Lockerbie. I can't imagine what purpose the statement that "The crazy part is, that if you doubled the body count, but put it in the midwest somewhere, where no one 'important' lives, over half the country wouldn't particularly care." was intended to serve but the effect on me was to make me discount the importance of anything else said by Roymeo. I guess the statement was intended to shock and offend, but in my case it invoked primarily disgust.

Deb
who appreciates thoughtful discourse and substantiated statements

Okay, I'm back for one, just a moment while I consume a bit of hubris, and explain the quick departure. No, I don't like to walk out on people, I'm not the type who plays till he gets the lead, then quits. I'm the type who feels that somehow, out of his own misstatement or other form of egregious error has caused offense, leading others to retaliation. I've been known to be wrong on occasion, (a fact the missus is never slow on reminding me of) and don't wish to cause upset, especially at a time like this. I'm no mindreader, so I have precious little access to whether any here are missing loved ones, or friends. Face it, whether we wish to admit it or not, this event changes everything, and we are all in the flux, feeling our way along.

Yes, there is a brief burst of childishness in my retort to the responses my comments seemed to have generated and I acted out of a defensiveness that was uncalled for. I do apologise for that.

I don't wish to leave any debate, but I've a few obstacles to continuing discussion. I don't want to discuss them, except to explain that I presently am convalescing in hospital, and only have internet access through the services of an internet cafe adjacent to the hospital. Not an excuse, merely stating fact.

Still, perhaps out of a combination of the two concerns, I will hold to the idea of checking out of the conversations in general.

I wish you all well.

--Micheal

[wivabef]

Welcome back, Michaelhead.

I sure hope you feel better very soon. I am glad you have an opportunity to access the internet and say "Hi" again.

Thanks for coming back to help with the dishes

Pax (from a Canadian living in NH)

Hello, funny how things work out. I checked my amount to find out how much time I've left, and discovered that dear ole Pater and Mater were kind enough to fork over cash here to keep me occupied at the web cafe. It means that I'll be able to speak to you all after all.

I can just see both my loving parents smiling sweetly, savoring the fact of others now having to bear the onerous burden of my company, after all the years that the misery of my residence had inflicted upon them by the arbitrary hand of cruel nature.

With that, onwards.

Let's take Roymeo's posit regarding the feelings of a country toward catastrophe and turn it slightly.

Suppose that the attack had been carried out on another's nation's soil, say, an attack on a crowd at Wembley, watching a football match, or if one of our towers in downtown Toronto was struck, with a comparable toll on lives lost. I don't believe for a minute that the US would express grief in the same magnitude that has prevailed in other's nations expressions, or would show any eagerness in assisting other nations in seeking those responsible.

Gee, it's fun to throw gasoline on the fire.

--Micheal

[realtraveller]

Well, I'm not sure how serious you are since you admit to wanting to 'throw gasoline on the fire'.

But here goes:

Who organized the Berlin airlift when the Soviet Union threated to cut West Berlin off from the rest of the world?

Which country gives more foreign aid than any other? Who gave 142 million just recently to Afghanistan to assist humanitarian efforts to feed people starving due to terrible droughts?

Which country always sends relief and teams of recovery experts when there are disasters like the earthquakes in Mexico and Turkey?

And this is just what I can think of off the top of my head. But if with all these efforts, the U. S. is still not appreciated, then perhaps we should return to isolationism.

[Prepoia[$]]

And...since this response is merely that, "Throwing gasoline on a fire" I'll simply say, "Bullshit" which often can put out fires if it is wet enough

No one but myself knows how deeply I feel tragedies in other places. And of course, my British relatives have said that most of their news is about the English citizens that were killed in the towers; I assume Cananadian papers talk about the loss of their loved ones most; and I feel that since we are in the US, our emphasis is with our losses and the losses of those they left behind in this country. Perspective is usually the prevailing pattern.

Sandy

[wivabef]

Michael --

Aha! You're back for seconds!

Realtraveller provided my response -- but I also would like to point out other demonstrations of "non US soil" reactions of caring on the part of USA.

D-Day
Hunger Relief

During the floods in Africa (I think this is where they were) -- it was US helicopters picking people from trees.

There were floods and mudslides in Central or South America a while back, and they had to say, "Please, stop sending clothing!" (Ok, so, sometimes we get a little carried away and unidirectional)

Michael, do not think for a minute that the thousands of people who stood in vigil on Parliament Hill went unnoticed. But do not think for a minute that if the CN tower was the object of this attack, and thousands of Canadians were dead, that we would not be stand en masse on The Mall.

Nice to see the kid gloves are put away, after all, its so nice to feel loved.

Yes, to the point made about all nations showing their side of the issue; there appears to be seventy to eighty of our people who are unaccounted for, not to mention three on the doomed aircraft.

I remain unconvinced of the altruistic nature of the US government, not of the American people. You've quoted a number of instances of American involvement in times of crisis, without mentioning that in virtually all of the aforementioned incidents, these decisions were made not out of a sense of largesse, rather from a self-interested American foreign policy.

D-Day, a wonderful accomplishment, agreed. But up to the point when America itself was attacked at Pearl Harbour, you took a largely isolationist stance, the notable exception being FDR's use of the open border to Canada to give aid to the British. Still, France, Belgium, and the Netherlands, along with the nations bordering Germany were allowed to fall.

The Berlin Airlift: I will say this, the courage of the pilots who flew under enormously difficult circumstances to keep the Allied section of the sieged city was tremedous. But this came at the expense of poor American policy toward the USSR, and was necessary to prevent a propaganda victory for the Soviet Union. If this had been some godforsaken, little known city, it wouldn't have happened.

Afghanistan aid - A byproduct of William Casey's and the CIA's secret war funding the Mujah-din against the Soviet Union. The logic was simple: buy the loyalty of the people with bread, literally. Prior to this, there was virtually no funding to assist the impoverished nation. We won't talk about how $3 billion dollars made its way through the CIA coffers into the hands of these "Freedom Fighters", who had within their ranks one Usama Bin-Lauden...

Okay, give me a minute to get the armor on...

--Micheal

[rich2003dm]

"I remain unconvinced of the altruistic nature of the US government."

I'll try to be gentle here, Michael. But I'm a Republican, and not as touchy feely as some of my more liberal fellow members.

First, I personally don't give a rat's ass if you feel this way.

Don't particularly like the United States government? I think, as a country, we can live with your dislike. It'll be tough though. We wanted so much for you to like us.

Second, if you want altruism, don't look to any government on this planet. Governments, by their nature, tend to work in their own self-interest.

But just try to name one government on this planet that has given more in foreign aid, disaster relief, and military assistance in time of crisis than the United States over the last hundred years. For whatever reason.

In our own fumbling way, we do a lot of good.

Are we perfect? Of course not.

Have we made mistakes? Sure.

But we have been pushed out there in front of this damned parade because no one else wants or has the resources to try and lead it. Sometimes we take a wrong turn, but that happens.

It's easy to sit back and do nothing, let someone else take the lead, and second guess everything that they attempt.

Be grateful you have that luxury.

Rich

Get well soon.

[pluckyduck]

Originally posted by rich2003dm
"I remain unconvinced of the altruistic nature of the US government."

I'll try to be gentle here, Michael. But I'm a Republican, and not as touchy feely as some of my more liberal fellow members.

First, I personally don't give a rat's ass if you feel this way.

Don't particularly like the United States government? I think, as a country, we can live with your dislike. It'll be tough though. We wanted so much for you to like us.

Second, if you want altruism, don't look to any government on this planet. Governments, by their nature, tend to work in their own self-interest.