| Archives Threads we can't stand to throw away. | 
09-13-2001, 03:36 AM
|  | Obfuscation Eschewer | | Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: rochester NY
Posts: 361
| | I am a bad bad person, and definitely a bad American. 'America Under Attack' | | OK. this is the soap box. here goes.
I am really sick and tired of being told how I should feel.
I have to be outraged.
I have to be angry.
I have to want someone to pay.
I have to be in mourning.
I have to be in shock.
I have to be pulling together with my co/workers.
Tomorrow, I've been told I've got to either wear red, white, and blue or be ready to deal with the askance looks from people in the street, co-workers, etc.
What I really have to do is watch my mouth.
I feel like I need to go find that 9% button I've got left over from Operation Desert Storm. you know, the 9% who weren't on the approval rating. I remember how suddenly I felt like I was in another reality because suddenly all these reasonable people were walking around DEMANDING that I hear them say "I support our troops!" though I could never find out what they did to support the troops other than walk around saying it. I remember how totally upside down I felt at 18, trying to explain what Islam was to the woman who babysat me from kindergarten til junior high, "Well, harumph, they don't believe that Jesus Christ is our savior who died on the cross for our sins." Neither do I.
"I support our troops and you better not say anything bad about them," even if only two women were raped by the Iraqi's (along with their male American comrades) and we averaged a rape a day of female American soldiers BY their comrades.
I feel somewhat like I did when Princess Diana died. Suddenly the aliens took over everyone's bodies and people who didn't even know how to spell her last name were publicly in grief about this traffic accident. (Disclosure: The company I worked for at the time did the computer reenactments of the accident and showed that she probably would have lived if she'd have been wearing a seat belt. I had nothing to do with the project.) Suddenly all these people started creating what appeared to be Jeff Koons inspired shrines to her. A much lesser version of this would be the sudden outpouring of kitsch and grief for Dale Earnhart after his death in a NASCAR race while I lived in Atlanta. Lesser, because you weren't 'in trouble' if you didn't go along with it, it was something the upper class could make fun of, and the people who were grieving actually seemed to have thought about Dale Earnhart in the past three months.
The article in Granta about this phenomenon of public grief and publicly imposed demanded response helped quite a bit with the feeling of "WHat the Hell is going on here?"
I feel a little like when I worked at McDonalds in Coralville Iowa and the people coming through the drive through were all blathering something about OJ. I didn't care, and though it absurd. Almost criminally absurd when the manager's fiance didn't come to pick her up for their pre-wedding preparations because he had to stay at home to watch it all.
I skipped work to watch "the Littleton Massacre" on Fox and CNN. Comparing and contrasting the quality of video feed, commentary (Duh, some jock who just ran past a dead classmate is telling you that the "Trenchcoat Mafia" are a bunch of fags and you're actually wondering whether there was a homosexual link in there....don't you friggen remember what high school boys are like? ) I sort of regretted it, after not being able to get the heck away from it after that first hour of non-events. I'm glad I no longer have a television...I'm sick already of hearing the non-news on NPR.
So, once again something big happens, it becomes the ONLY thing happening due to media supersaturation, people start to play the real life version of the Kevin Bacon game (Pookie works at two of the colleges in Upstate New York where many of the slacker children of rich NYC types go, so many of them lost fathers, almost half the board of trustees is presumed dead, several people she met at Burning Man last week have cuts and scrapes from the carnage, I have 3 ex-co-workers who had been in the building the previous week, beat that!) to somehow justify all of this (in my interpretation).
I'll admit that I probably went into some territory that I should have had the sense to stay away from, on this board. People were shocked at the various people celebrating. I couldn't believe someone thinking that only 'our' pain was inviolate. But just as I don't want people imposing their emotional demands upon me, I really shouldn't do that to others. I guess I hadn't read the depth to which this was going to travel.
"How can you say that?? You don't support our troops! You shouldn't say that, you'll make it just like Veit Nam! I support our troops!"
Whether it is related to Palestine or not, I've been following the story for quite a while. I remarked to co-workers two weeks ago (gotta watch the political discussions, but I think I kept it well within bounds) that I felt especially bad for the liberal Palestinians...Tey have Israeli helicopters blowing them up on one side and fundamentalist Muslims killing them in vigilante actions for 'suspected cooperation' with the Israeli's or speaking out against terror-bombings.
So, I guess you can patronize me and say that I'm just in shock. But I think that just as I'm a better person for not telling you what you should feel, I'd appreciate the same. People don't just react 'differently' to situations, people also react in different amounts. Some people are betrayed by lovers and walk away after a good cry, some people never get over it. The only part I've got problems with is the almost-guilt of feeling that I'm supposed to be acting with the same amount of enthusiasm as everyone else. My mistake was not just imposing upon others, but imposing before I realized what a huge tidal wave I was working against. People were going to be absolutely livid that I posted that Americans have remained ignorant and enjoyed quite a bit of schadenfreude over tragedies for others in the past. Of course I was making a general, blanket statement (not necessarily worded eloquently) that people took personally, duh roy. But many people also just weren't (and probably still aren't) ready to take a long view. It was time for many to watch CNN and be a part of the buzz and share the real grief they were feeling.
Dammit. I'm still making that sound pejorative.
I said maybe Palestinians had reason to feel like celebrating, few wanted to hear that anyone could celebrate such an act. I hadn't gauged how strongly people were reacting to this. I also hadn't picked up on the vibe that I'm supposed to be one of "All Americans" that's being tossed out from every media I see.
I suppose this joy is probably not the most healthy, but I can understand how someone could feel elated when the murderer of their loved one(s) when executed by the state. I can also understand how the relatives of the dead in the Chinese embassy in Kosovo could be grinning watching the footage, even the kin of the Japanese fishing vessel one of our subs blundered into might have a sparkle in their eye seeing the Pentagon burn. No, I don't think it's right, justified, fair, karma, or appropriate that innocent people died in any of the attacks that occurred. Either. So, this post is for anyone who feels a touch out of place, as of late. Maybe you don't understand the vehemence of the reactions you're being exposed to. Maybe you just don't get the obligatory public showing of personal emotions you're being exposed to. We're not completely alone....I've had one trusted friend confide after feeling me out for a while and prefacing the statement with plenty of disclaimers, "Don't get me wrong, but wow they certainly did an amazing amount of damage." No 'i think it's neat a bunch of people died' or anything like that. And really, isn't that "Wow" the subtext of every "Oklahoma City Bombing", "Pearl Harbor", terrorist attack mention which is far surpassed by this one. Hearing that, I let a big sigh of release. Finally, someone I can talk to about this that isn't trying to tell me how sorrowful I better be.
I'm not wearing Red White and Blue tomorrow. I'm not wearing all black in some sort of sick 'get out of my face' obnoxious protest, either. I'm not trying to hurt people, I'm trying to get them to leave me the hell alone, directly, and stop imposing stuff onto me indirectly. I don't want us to 'go bomb some one', I don't want to start worrying about those ex-co-workers that I've not thought about for 2 years though I'm glad none of them died in any way. I don't want to hurt you, but I do want you to talk for yourself, not for me....maybe I'm not just a cold-hearted bastard, maybe I have my own way of dealing with stuff. Maybe I just think the world is a pretty f'ing horrible place and I was a little less unprepared for terror at home. Maybe I'm less affected by this, and more affected by other things. Maybe I am just a cold-hearted bastard, and maybe everyone else is just being whipped into a media hysteria. I dunno. Let's leave each other alone and look after our own emotions, offer support, not demand grief-actions as obeisance.
I read an article in the past 6 months about school shootings. (New Yorker, Harpers?) The author discussed the way that high school students have all now been exposed to enough school shootings that the last several have been like actors with scripts. You rush outside to the parking lot, where you give your prepared statement, hug, talk about how you can't believe it. At Littleton, kids watched the news coverage and reported what they'd seen on TV when they got outside or phoned out of the building. The kitchenette at work has cable and just walking through a couple times, (my total TV exposure today) I've seen:
- - reporters talking about my grief. All Americans blah blah blah. "And this event is weighing upon all American's minds today."
- - reporters using 'bad day' cliches. I swear I heard a movie line from a commentator wonk, and another use a barely modified historical tragedy line (Hindenberg?, day of infamy from Pearl Harbor?). Look, the situation is tragic. Duh. We know that. There's a certain level of very formal gravitas that's coming off as false. As if you put ME up there and I was trying to act like I was in deep mourning. The events are serious, real, grim, sickening, etc. by themselves. You don't have to tell me that 2 passenger jets crashing into the twin towers of the world trade center leaving a huge number of dead is a Bad Thing. We already know this. But since there's not really anything to report, we have to generate something. "We are deeply saddened and horrified at yesterday's shocking attack against our nation."
- - real people being interviewed who parrot those same statements back. (OK, OK, people in grief are NOT to be judged on their creativity, but the lock-step of the whole thing has me feeling like I'm seeing a movie for the 3rd time in a row. But as long as WE keep watching it, they're going to continue to pump this thing for everything it's worth.)
- - a woman and son(?) looking like they were dressed up for a concert, in what I can only assume were T-Shirts with the missing husband/father on them (maybe they were just both holding identical pictures of him in front of their chests?). Trash TV IS reality...people can't wait to exploit their pain for a camera. I can even try to rationalize it as 'they were trying to turn this one loved one from a statistic into a real human being' but I still don't want to see it....so I kept walking.
So, there it is. That's how I feel. I encourage you to differ.
roymeo
Last edited by roymeo; 09-13-2001 at 05:47 AM.
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09-13-2001, 04:14 AM
|  | Junior Member | | Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 8,328
| | Re: I am a bad bad person, and definitely a bad American. | | Quote: Originally posted by roymeo
So, there it is. That's how I feel. I encourage you to differ.
roymeo | Ok, I'll differ.
I don't think the people holding up the pictures of their relatives on tv are looking for their 15 seconds of tv fame -- I think they're hoping that somebody who's watching will recognize the person from the picture and will get in touch with the station who will get in touch with them. It's a way to find the missing person, to find people who might know what has happened to him or her. What would you have them do -- sit around and wait? It's going to be weeks, at least, until everybody who's missing is accounted for.
As for the other stuff, I don't know. In the Bay Area, where I live, everything tends to be topsy-turvy. Already, last night, on the radio, there were people going on and on about how while it's not a good thing to kill a whole bunch of innocent people, still, what do we expect when the United States is so arrogant, and people hate us for very good reasons and we really need to change our evil ways, yadda yadda yadda, which did piss me off. During Desert Storm, there were large demonstrations against the war. The point being that I don't really know how it feels to be subjected to the kind of pressure to wear red, white, and blue that you're talking about -- sometimes it's almost the opposite, I feel pressure I don't want to protest things that I don't feel opposed to. But maybe it's good to pick your battles, and if you're going against whatever the particular grain happens to be whereever you are, is it always worth it to provoke a confrontation?
I think yesterday's events could seem kind of abstract and surreal or could seem gut-wrenchingly horrific depending upon how close you are personally to what happened. You may dismiss it as a Kevin Bacon game, but it does matter if someone you know, or someone that someone you know knows and cares about was killed yesterday. It matters!! You can't say it's all just a media-created hysteria -- real people died and real people knew them. And even if it's nobody they knew personally, why do you automatically assume that people can't have genuine empathy for strangers?
The people who were killed were doing things we can all relate to -- people flying in planes, people working in their offices. And I'm sure this was deliberate on the terrorists' part, to attack people that everybody else *would* identify with, so that people would feel sick and scared. It's not the media that planned it that way.
If the terrorists had attacked a military base only, a lot of people would be angry but you wouldn't have the same kind of widespread horror and fear. And again, I'm sure that was deliberate.
I think you're aiming at the wrong target. | 
09-13-2001, 04:58 AM
| | Ø | | Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Return to sender
Posts: 260
| | Mom, I wanna be bad like Roy when I grow up | | Oh Roy!
Look, I'm a hardened cynic, but you gotta make allowances and give people room in the immediate aftermath of something like this. Uh uh, no, I ain't sayin' 'you gotta' as in you gotta... just speaking generally.
What I admire about America is that here you can stand up and deliver an unpopular opinion longer than almost anywhere else in the world—I mean, if what you're saying is totally against the grain of public opinion, you will be shut down, but you'll get a few weeks to mouth off where in other countries you'd have been slammed behind bars and had lit cigarettes slammed against your perineum within hours. So, once again something big happens, it becomes the ONLY thing happening due to media supersaturation, people start to play the real life version of the Kevin Bacon game.
I know! Ongoing coverage by the networks. Nothing else happened in the world today. I remember the same thing happening during the last media feeding frenzy (remember it? something in some southern state with palm trees?), but then they took a few breaks to cover other stories.
And you caught me here Roy... I did find myself playing the Bacon game trying to link myself to this, and slapped myself silly when I caught myself. There is enough tears mixed up in all this already; I cannot begin to comprehend the loss uncountable people have suffered, and still won't if I find something, someone, some crutch to link me to this.
I started to reply to a bunch of your points, but... some people think I'm a sick cold-blooded bastard... I don't feel like confirming it now, and I gotta sleep...
... but...
... I can't get over the feeling that the media is painting this as an event we have a duty to pay attention to because so many died... geesh, whether there are 24636 or 24728 dead or 245 dead, it means all the world to those affected...
... oops...
... okay, I'll stop.
Yesterday, I was ready to hug the few people interviewed on TV who managed to keep themselves distanced from the rhetoric of anger that suddenly became chic to be seen and heard spouting. The higher up the brass the schlemiel was, the more fire and brimstone s/he could get away with.
After watching TV for a while Wednesday, I am now ready to kiss those few. Yeah, not only are we going to find the sick retards who did this, we're going to take our big fucking hammer and smash their nuts too. And to those of you putting a call to the FBI about me right now, of course I want to see justice! But oh god! I really really hope that I'm imagining things and that intelligent, perceptive folks like you don't see a rabid lynch mob being formed here.
Roy, if you promise not to take it personally, I have a kiss for you too... 
__________________ » t-þoo /ê·dì·ot/ or /id·jït/ n. blatherskite ( obs.)
»******************************** Science-off
» ... since giving out praise doesn't cost a person anything but actually wins affection, praise is ladled out freely and praise inflation occurs. The value of each unit of flattery declines, and pretty soon {you} have to pass over a wheelbarrow full of praise just to pay one compliment. | 
09-13-2001, 05:40 AM
|  | Mid-Atlantic Belle | | Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Virginia
Posts: 135
| | Roy:
I can relate to a lot of your thoughts. I don't think it's a bad thing to not want to be told how to feel. You don't have to feel any certain way (and I just realized that there I am, inadvertently telling you how to feel). I haven't even been posting my real, true thoughts about these events or the reactions to these events anywhere because I know the way I feel is not the norm, would be very unpopular, would probably be needlessly incendiary, etc., etc., and there's really no point in that. I've been feeling like a huge hypocrite the last couple of days. I've also been trying to identify (not identify, I can't think of the right word . . . maybe just getting some perspective) with why some see this as cause for celebration or how those around the world who experience terrorist attacks on a frequent basis feel--I never even gave much thought to those living in veritable war zones until this happened, which I guess is like most people. But I also feel like I have to be patriotic even though I'm really not, and I do have qualms with the status quo (not like it matters). I am having surges of feelings that are not what I normally would feel, and I also don't think my private response would be considered "normal" or "acceptable." | 
09-13-2001, 09:59 AM
|  | Epinions Members | | Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Alabama
Posts: 8,824
| | First and foremost, let me say that you have the right to feel any way that you happen to feel and that you have the right to say so. And I, as a commissioned officer in the United States Army, respect that very right, because I've sworn to defend it.
I am often annoyed by people who fail to realize that having the freedom to feel, do or say anything they want means that everyone else has that freedom too, and they are obliged to "put up with"--for want of a better phrase--everyone else doing exactly what they want, say or feel especially when others actions and reactions differ from their own or from the mainstream.
As for some Palestinians celebrating in the streets, I can fully understand their doing so. I think that our society has been conditioned to root for the underdog, and we all cheer in the movies and in books when the underdog gets in some good licks or outright defeats the big evil giant. I relate the reaction of celebration by some Palestinians as their cheering for the underdog. Doesn't everyone get a little pleasure out of seeing the big bully laid low once in awhile? I think so. [Please note: I am not trying to say that the US is a big bully or an evil giant, only that other societies might see the US that way. Whether the US is a bully or an evil giant is another discussion entirely.]
So you feel how you feel, and I will be the last person to tell you that you "gotta" feel any certain way at all. And no matter if I disagree with how you feel (which I don't), I will still stand up for your right to feel as you do and the right for other people to say that you "gotta" feel as they do.
Ah, freedom, the double-edged sword!
--naomi
__________________ --naomi | 
09-13-2001, 10:07 AM
|  | I'm against it. | | Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 551
| | Interesting thread. Roy, I get where you're coming from here. While I was-- and still am-- reeling from all of this, I do have to admit that I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed by the never-ending media coverage. It's like they are trying to pound every American citizen into submission-- mandating a depressed and horrified mindset for all.
I'm ready to focus on something else now and it's so frustrating b/c the media isn't letting me! Last night, I went to Wal-Mart, trying to go on with my daily chores. Imagine my surprise when I heard news radio being blared over the store's speakers! No escape!
I do care about what's happening, but I can't deal with this endless barrage of news commentators reminding us all how many lives were lost, how horribly they died, and interviewing grief-stricken family members. Enough already! I think the country needs to be allowed to try to MOVE ON. I don't want to wallow. And when I mention this at work, people look at me like a traitor!
So I tried logging onto E!Online to read about mindless fluff this morning. What do I get? "Hollywood reacts to the attack!"
Argh!
vania | 
09-13-2001, 11:22 AM
|  | Scoutmaster | | Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 275
| | Roy,
I sympathize with you. I know the media will cover this to death, but everytime I see replays of what happened, I start to lose it. My emotions take over. Do I want someone to pay? Yes.
I love this country. This is tearing me up. I have always felt if I was alive and of age (not born) when Pearl Harbor happened, I would have enlisted. If I was of age now (too old), I would enlist to go to fight whoever did this to us.
__________________ Scoutmaster Ed | 
09-13-2001, 12:21 PM
|  | Sob Sister | | Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 127
| | So far no one has told me how to feel. I just keep hearing them tell me how they feel, which could get old eventually I guess, but so far has not. Particularly when the person expresses himself in as thoughtful and intelligent a way as you have here.
I'm not sure what I would do if someone told me to wear red, white and blue clothing on a particular day, probably the same thing I do when my employers and co-workers try to tell me what to wear on October 31st each year: nothing.
You didn't ask, but here is what I feel: fear.
I'm not usually much of a tv watcher, but I find myself staying close to the news these days. And when I hear the same ol' same ol' from the media, I am not annoyed (as I was after OJ and the last election) but rather, relieved. When I see that the day's headline is, "Still looking through the rubble," my fear that something even worse has happened, is at least temporarily assuaged.
The other thing that is making me afraid is the depth of some people's feelings, mixed with the depth of their ignorance. I fear for the personal safety of "arab-looking" Americans in particular. Here on the internet, individuals who know nothing of history, or geopolitics, or even geography for God's sake, are spouting such passionate hatred that it frightens me in a way that I have not known since the Iran/hostage situation, way back when.
So I won't say feel whatever you feel, because that would be telling you how to feel, right?  But thank you for posting this.
julie | 
09-13-2001, 12:22 PM
|  | Mom of the Four Men | | Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Canada, sort of
Posts: 17,264
| | Roy,
After tipu is done kissing you, may I have a turn?
If the media keep on drawing every drop of pathos out of this, eventually people are going to be hurt- innocent people. The Arab-American Voice, a newspaper in Dearborn, MI, has received a steady stream of hate calls and bomb threats since this happened. That is ugly. Mosques in my city have had bomb threats. All synagogues and Jewish schools have been placed on alert- this isn't going to help us heal, it's going to eventually cause a much worse tragedy. This is what scares me.
Cindy | 
09-13-2001, 12:25 PM
|  | Epinions Members | | Join Date: May 2001 Location: South of Bawlmer
Posts: 6,371
| | Dear Roymeo:
I don't think feeling the way you feel makes you a bad person or a bad American. I think being able to write what you are writing and doing so makes you a good American -- exercising your rights while being careful not to hurt others.
Now, I didn't read the other posts that you refer to which compelled you to write this defense, but I must agree with the media overkill. It only serves to provide misinformation. I'm watching TV thinking my husband's going to be blown away because there are reports of a bomb at the Westin-Copley -- he works adjacent to this hotel. I was angry with the report, but then...
I had to calm myself...
and think "wouldn't it have been nice if the people in the Towers and the Pentagon and Pennsylvania and the four airplanes been aware ahead of time? And wouldn't the media be kicking themselves if they had ignored it?"
I think the media should be much more careful and repetitive in their warnings that this is all speculative information and we don't -- or shouldn't -- know as much as authorities are letting on.
I am rambling way off point, here...
My only point of contention with your piece is the suggestion that anyone celebrate over the death of innocent lives. I shouldn't even attempt to speak for the passengers and families of the victims of the Japanese fishing vessel. But if you can only see misdirected anger, step back and take a long look -- I don't think "joy" or "elation" or even "retaliation" could be applied to the families who grieve for innocent lives lost in a careless, tragic accident. Do not compare an accident (I don't think the skipper and his crew would intentionally seek out a Japanese fishing vessel to sink in some terrorist act) to this most calculated act seeking to kill as many people as possible on one day.
I know, I'm telling you what to think, and I am sorry. But don't suggest what some innocent third party might be going through. Ask anyone of them -- I doubt there is an ounce of gladness in their souls over this tragedy.
__________________ ''Resolve not to let the defeat of your favorite candidate shatter your faith in America or turn you away from politics. There will be another day. Remember the Red Sox.'' David Broder | 
09-13-2001, 02:51 PM
| | | While I think that showing these people holding up photographs is really a bit cruel and heartless, I wouldn't think of blaming it on the people holding up the photographs. Personally that was the thing that moved me the most
Imagine how awful they must feel, knowing that since they haven't heard from their friends, fathers, mothers that they are probably dead but still hoping that they have just been lost and are in shock and just haven't thought to call or something... Most of the people in the building are not going to be identified (ummm... 100+ stories are now less than 5 stories and were compressed to such a small percentage in only a couple seconds, the pressure entirely concentrated inside because the steel shell of the buildings was specially designed to contain explosions) so many of these people will never know what happened to their loved ones. These are people that should have counselors and friends to help them through this tragedy but instead they are out on the air hoping against hope that what they know isn't true.
Other than that... Well... I think that people are overreacting a bit perhaps. People saying that this can't be compared with Kennedy's assassination because it is so much worse? Well, it isn't exactly the same thing. The same with the Challenger disaster or Mount St. Helens erupting (ummm... it was big here in Washington state)... All are traumatic experiences but in different ways...
Ander | 
09-13-2001, 02:56 PM
|  | Got my hands over my eyes | | Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Maryland
Posts: 6,732
| | Roymeo,
Apparently the folks who are trying to tell you what to wear and how to feel or think need a refresher on the Constitution and it's amendments -- particularly those first 10. Maybe someone should print that on a T-shirt.
I wasn't nearly as shocked on Tuesday as most people. My husband works for a government agency that didn't get hit, but that he has thought was a target for years. I was awfully glad to see him walk in the door Tuesday afternoon. If his building had been hit instead of the Pentagon, I'd probably be out there with the folks ready to bomb whoever did it. As it is, I REALLY do not want this to turn into WW III and not just because I have 18 and 20 year old sons.
I do understand why people were cheering on Tuesday. Maybe they lost someone when we bombed Bagdad. Maybe when we bombed that "weapons factory" which was actually a pharmaceutical company. Maybe they were just horrified by those actions -- as I was. Does any of that - or anything else the US has done justify flying commercial jetliners into civilian buildings? Not to my mind, but I'm very well aware that there are lots of people who don't think the way I do. I really believe that Tuesday was payback for many of the actions of our government and our multi-national corporations over the last 20+ years. It was horrible. It was wrong. It shouldn't have been such a surprise.
__________________ Judy | 
09-13-2001, 03:07 PM
| | | Umm...
Whoah.
Hiroshima/Nagasaki. Perhaps if this were put against those sorts of things...?
Big problems with doing that but...? | 
09-13-2001, 03:09 PM
| | | Umm... What brought that to mind was the fact that I have been expecting something like this for the last few years (not necessarily that it will happen now but eventually) but I was expecting something more like nuclear bombs...
Ander | 
09-13-2001, 03:17 PM
|  | Epinions Members | | Join Date: May 2001 Location: South of Bawlmer
Posts: 6,371
| | Quote: Originally posted by jgibson2 I do understand why people were cheering on Tuesday. Maybe they lost someone when we bombed Bagdad. Maybe when we bombed that "weapons factory" which was actually a pharmaceutical company. Maybe they were just horrified by those actions -- as I was. Does any of that - or anything else the US has done justify flying commercial jetliners into civilian buildings? Not to my mind, but I'm very well aware that there are lots of people who don't think the way I do. I really believe that Tuesday was payback for many of the actions of our government and our multi-national corporations over the last 20+ years. It was horrible. It was wrong. It shouldn't have been such a surprise. | Gee. I wasn't "cheering" when that "weapons factory" was bombed. Celebrating the death of innocents -- no matter what their nationality -- does not seem very humane to me.
I don't care who did what to anybody.
__________________ ''Resolve not to let the defeat of your favorite candidate shatter your faith in America or turn you away from politics. There will be another day. Remember the Red Sox.'' David Broder | 
09-13-2001, 03:27 PM
|  | Got my hands over my eyes | | Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Maryland
Posts: 6,732
| | Elyzabeth,
I didn't cheer either. Most Americans probably didn't -- but some did. Humane? No. Understandable that some would feel that way? It is to me. I'm not telling anyone how they should feel about that, though.
Just how many people had to cheer for Fox to make that tape they keep replaying? Unless there's more than one tape, I'd say less than 100.
__________________ Judy | 
09-13-2001, 04:26 PM
|  | Hello, I'm Deb | | Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Oregon
Posts: 7,208
| | Admin reminder:
We're all a bit on edge right now . . . let's stick to issues, explain our positions, and allow others to explain theirs. There will obviously be "hot" issues and if you find yourself becoming angry, maybe it's time to take a break, take a walk, and come back to it in a few.
Deb
who appreciates beyond measure the opportunity to live in a country where we have the freedom to express our opinion | 
09-13-2001, 05:25 PM
|  | Yes, I am just this cute! | | Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: The Gem State
Posts: 7,222
| | This is just a snippet I pulled from an e-mail I got a few minutes after reading this post. It supposedly from an 18 year old. See Roy, your feeling different than those around you is also celebrated, you may just not realize it right now:
"…Go ahead and whine your terrorist whine, and chant your terrorist litany: "If you can not see my point, then feel my pain." This concept is alien to Americans. We live in a country where we don't have to see your point. But you're free to have one. We don't have to listen to your speech. But you're free to say one. Don't know where you got the strange idea that everyone
has to agree with you. We don't agree with each other in this country, almost as a matter of pride. We're a collection of guys that don't agree, called States. We united our individual states to protect urselves from tyranny in the world. Another idea, we made up on the spot. You CAN make it up as you go, when it's your country. If you're free enough. Yeah, we're fat, sloppy, easy-going goofs most of the time. …."
Lots of times I don't feel patriotic, just ask me about me about my feelings on the Persian Gulf and supporting our troops. My husband was one of the troops and I still wasn't supportive! Anyway, feel free to feel different...but sometimes it ain't easy being the odd one out.
__________________ Margo Quote: Latter-day Saints as citizens are to seek out and then uphold leaders who will act with integrity and are wise, good, and honest. Principles compatible with the gospel may be found in various political parties. | | 
09-14-2001, 01:47 PM
|  | Hello, I'm Deb | | Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Oregon
Posts: 7,208
| | Here is a diary written by a Newsweek reporter which talks not only about his personal reaction to the tragedy but to the behavior of news reporters.
I especially appreciated his question "How much redundant news coverage do we really need? When does it all slide into a grotesque kind of entertainment?" He followed this up with a judgement question regarding the behavior of others to the tragedy "What the hell is wrong with these people?", followed up with a question for himself, "What the hell is wrong with you, judging these people, who obviously don’t know what to do with themselves?"
Deb
__________________ Support our Marines "If you want to be free, there is but one way; it is to guarantee an equally full measure of liberty to all your neighbors. There is no other." - Carl Shurz, German general and politician | 
09-14-2001, 03:41 PM
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