| Archives Threads we can't stand to throw away. |
10-10-2001, 03:07 PM
|  | Epinions Members | | Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Longview, Texas, USA
Posts: 1,498
| | Can you imagine these folks preaching to you? | |
Last edited by mnehr; 10-11-2001 at 10:46 AM.
|
10-10-2001, 03:14 PM
|  | Epinions Members | | Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: in the palm of your hand
Posts: 12,708
| |
I suppose that it’s just a matter of time until they get in line for the pool of federal money that might become available for faith-based charities. Will funds earmarked for Wookie detox programs be diverted to pay for light sabers?
Edited to say that mjfrombuffalo is correct about it being the UK rather than the US. And my company pays me to do proofreading???
Last edited by erik_kosberg; 10-10-2001 at 04:40 PM.
|
10-10-2001, 03:15 PM
| | |
"These are not the Religious Use IRS Tax Exemption forms you're looking for." |
10-10-2001, 04:11 PM
|  | In Spanish, I'm Marijuana | | Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Lawn-Guy-Land, NY
Posts: 29,199
| |
Check your article again - it's the UK, not US, and it does state that having its own census code doesn't make it an official religion.
Of course if that's all it took to make a religion official, I'd be having everyone write in for the Vulcan Church of Logic. (Star Trek was SO much better than Star Wars for intellectual fantasy!  )
Live long and prosper, everyone!
mj
__________________
MJ
It's extraordinary to me that the United States can find $700 billion to save Wall Street and the entire G8 can't find $25 billion dollars to save 25,000 children who die every day from preventable diseases.~ Bono |
10-10-2001, 04:37 PM
| | Epinions Members | | Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: in the palm of your hand
Posts: 12,708
| |
Quote: |
Check your article again - it's the UK, not US
| Soon to be a wholly-owned subsidiary of the US?  |
10-10-2001, 04:39 PM
|  | Epinions Members | | Join Date: May 2001 Location: South of Bawlmer
Posts: 6,405
| |
...and if this were in the US, I just can't wait to see all the cries for the symbols of this religion to be removed from the school. No more Jarjar Binks lunch boxes, no more Anakin Skywalker backpacks, no more....
hey, wait a minute. Maybe this IS a good thing! Maybe Barbie can be deemed a religion!!!
__________________
''Resolve not to let the defeat of your favorite candidate shatter your faith in America or turn you away from politics. There will be another day. Remember the Red Sox.''
David Broder |
10-10-2001, 06:02 PM
| | In Spanish, I'm Marijuana | | Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Lawn-Guy-Land, NY
Posts: 29,199
| |
I like that idea! let's make a religion for Blue's Clues, Barney, The Simpsons, Teletubbies... basically anything overmarketed, especially those overmarketed to those under 18 years old!!! 
mj
__________________
MJ
It's extraordinary to me that the United States can find $700 billion to save Wall Street and the entire G8 can't find $25 billion dollars to save 25,000 children who die every day from preventable diseases.~ Bono |
10-11-2001, 12:38 AM
|  | Epinions Members | | Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: USA
Posts: 5,876
| |
http://www.ulc.org
you too can start your very own church-become an ordained minister
__________________ Fridai my epinions "Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can
find a rock."---Will Rogers |
10-11-2001, 09:05 AM
|  | Scoutmaster | | Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 275
| |
"Freedom of the press and religion are guaranteed in the Bill of Rights, but who's going to free us from the profitmongers that have taken on the guise of modern religion and journalism?"
file13,
This might not be the correct thread for this but the freedom of religion while allowed Constitution, is not allowed in many parts of the USA.
__________________
Scoutmaster Ed |
10-11-2001, 10:19 AM
|  | Usagi Yojimbo | | Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: The Birthplace of American Democracy
Posts: 16,777
| |
Quote: Originally posted by evmori
file13,
This might not be the correct thread for this but the freedom of religion while allowed Constitution, is not allowed in many parts of the USA. | In which part of the country are you not allowed to hold which beliefs? Please provide documentation.
-JP |
10-11-2001, 10:41 AM
|  | Mom of the Four Men | | Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Canada, sort of
Posts: 17,475
| |
Quote: | hey, wait a minute. Maybe this IS a good thing! Maybe Barbie can be deemed a religion!!! | :beer:
ROFL, wivabef. Best idea I've heard in ages!
Cindy |
10-11-2001, 10:48 AM
| | Scoutmaster | | Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 275
| |
Quote: Originally posted by drmomentum
In which part of the country are you not allowed to hold which beliefs? Please provide documentation.
-JP | According to the Supreme Court, the state & church must be separate (although this appears nowhere in the Constitution). This means the state or anything state funded (public schools in particular) are not allowed to have prayer. Example, no prayers prior to a football game whether student initiated & led or not (I think this happened in Arkansas). In some school districts (can't remember where off hand) bible clubs are banned while any other club is allowed (Freedom of Assembly).
Sorry I couldn't be more specific. Check out the American Center for Law & Justice web site. http://aclj.org
__________________
Scoutmaster Ed |
10-11-2001, 12:05 PM
| | Banned | | Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 9,648
| |
Be careful in differentiating belief and practice.
Saying 'I'm not allowed to have organised prayer before a football game' is not infringing on your belief, but rather on your practice. Unless your gospel states that you are required to pray before the football game in a public and organised way, your belief is not being denied.
That is where the trickiness comes in. How many Protestants would be happy with a Catholic prayer being said before the game? How many Christians would be happy with a Muslim prayer said before the games. Are you prepared to give equal time to make sure all are represented in the prayers?
I've always interpreted the division of church and state in this country to be right in line with the teachings of Jesus:
'Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God what is God's.'
BTW, my friend's cat is ordained the the ULC. |
10-11-2001, 12:14 PM
| | Scoutmaster | | Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 275
| |
Quote: Originally posted by kurt_messick
Be careful in differentiating belief and practice.
Saying 'I'm not allowed to have organised prayer before a football game' is not infringing on your belief, but rather on your practice. Unless your gospel states that you are required to pray before the football game in a public and organised way, your belief is not being denied.
That is where the trickiness comes in. How many Protestants would be happy with a Catholic prayer being said before the game? How many Christians would be happy with a Muslim prayer said before the games. Are you prepared to give equal time to make sure all are represented in the prayers?
I've always interpreted the division of church and state in this country to be right in line with the teachings of Jesus:
'Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God what is God's.'
Freedom of religion is just that - freedom. Just as someone can start a religion about Jedi's, Muslims can have prayer time before a football game. Would I like it - No. Should it be allowed - Yes. Freedom of speech & religion that is stated in the Constitution gives us as American citizens that right.
BTW, my friend's cat is ordained the the ULC. |
__________________
Scoutmaster Ed |
10-11-2001, 12:20 PM
| | Scoutmaster | | Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 275
| |
This was my post. Too quick on the clicker.
Freedom of religion is just that - freedom. Just as someone can start a religion about Jedi's, Muslims can have prayer time before a football game. Would I like it - No. Should it be allowed - Yes. Freedom of speech & religion that is stated in the Constitution gives us as American citizens that right.
__________________
Scoutmaster Ed |
10-11-2001, 01:13 PM
| | Usagi Yojimbo | | Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: The Birthplace of American Democracy
Posts: 16,777
| |
Quote: Originally posted by evmori
According to the Supreme Court, the state & church must be separate (although this appears nowhere in the Constitution). This means the state or anything state funded (public schools in particular) are not allowed to have prayer. Example, no prayers prior to a football game whether student initiated & led or not (I think this happened in Arkansas). In some school districts (can't remember where off hand) bible clubs are banned while any other club is allowed (Freedom of Assembly).
Sorry I couldn't be more specific. Check out the American Center for Law & Justice web site. http://aclj.org | They provide no example where the freedom to pray has been denied, let alone evidence that there are parts of the country where freedom of religion is routinely curtailed.
You say that you would not like it if Muslims had prayer time before a football game. Why not?
-JP |
10-11-2001, 02:36 PM
| | Scoutmaster | | Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 275
| |
Quote: Originally posted by drmomentum
They provide no example where the freedom to pray has been denied, let alone evidence that there are parts of the country where freedom of religion is routinely curtailed.
You say that you would not like it if Muslims had prayer time before a football game. Why not?
-JP | If a prayer is not allowed prior to a school sporting event, then prayer is denied. As far as evidence, listen to the news, read the paper. There isn't a specific part of the country, it is spread throughout.
I wouldn't like it because I'm not a Muslim. But, if they want a prayer time, that is their right under the Constitution.
The ACLU has been adamant about eliminating prayer from any institution that receives federal or state funds. Since September 11th, the ACLU has been quiet and prayer has been allowed all over.
__________________
Scoutmaster Ed |
10-11-2001, 02:45 PM
| | Epinions Members | | Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: in the palm of your hand
Posts: 12,708
| |
Got a link with any evidence at all of anyone being arrested for praying? |
10-11-2001, 02:59 PM
| | Scoutmaster | | Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 275
| |
No I don't, but that's not the issue. The issue, in my opinion, is the Constitution guarantees freedom of religion. To me this means having a prayer prior to a school or any other sporting event. There have been instances where if this was allowed to happen the school would have been sued for violating the "separation of church & state" which appears nowhere in the Constitution.
No laws broken, just rights denied.
__________________
Scoutmaster Ed |
10-11-2001, 03:04 PM
|  | I'm against it. | | Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 551
| |
Quote: Originally posted by evmori
To me this means having a prayer prior to a school or any other sporting event. | The problem with this, is who are you going to pray to? What form of prayer will you use??
With so many different religions out there, it would be unfair to pick one over the other. I'm all for a "moment for silent reflection" or whatever. People who want to pray can pray, people who want to daydream can daydream. But I'm not sure about a public prayer before a school football game.
As an aside, when I was in high school, prayers were actually allowed at games. Always seemed kind of silly to me. Why pray before a football game???
v. |
10-11-2001, 03:05 PM
| | Banned | | Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 9,648
| |
Again, this is PRACTICE, not BELIEF.
Why can't everyone pray in silence to whomever one wants to pray to?
Why does there have to be organised prayer time? No one is stopping anyone from praying at any time. In fact, many prominent Christians, from Augustine to Luther to Mother Theresa to Billy Graham, think you should pray without ceasing.
They do not say you should go round up people and make a public event out of your prayer.
Again, I remember Jesus saying, about the two men praying in the Temple -- it was the one who wasn't making a public event of 'look how good I can be' out of it that was in true prayer.
The problem with organised prayer is that it leaves people out. It gives a tacit endorsement to whomever is permitted to lead the prayer.
What happens if your public act of prayer infringes on my freedom of religion? Why do football games and school classrooms become a setting for religious practice? If the kids pray at home (as they should), with their families, and attend church regularly, what then is the point of the schools conducting prayer? |
10-11-2001, 03:08 PM
| | I'm against it. | | Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 551
| |
Fr. Kurt, thank you! You said exactly what I was trying to say (I think we were posting at the same time)!!! The only difference is, you said it much more eloquently....
vania |
10-11-2001, 03:21 PM
| | Usagi Yojimbo | | Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: The Birthplace of American Democracy
Posts: 16,777
| |
Quote: Originally posted by evmori
No laws broken, just rights denied. | But not one news story or press release to point to detailing an individual being denied his religious beliefs by the government.
-JP |
10-11-2001, 04:41 PM
| | Scoutmaster | | Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 275
| |
Quote: |
The problem with organised prayer is that it leaves people out. It gives a tacit endorsement to whomever is permitted to lead the prayer.
| No argument. But then so does sports to those who are not athletic. Quote: |
Again, I remember Jesus saying, about the two men praying in the Temple -- it was the one who wasn't making a public event of 'look how good I can be' out of it that was in true prayer.
| Again, no argument. But to those who want to pray openly at a public event that is run by a government funded organization, you can't without the ACLU crying foul. Quote: |
But not one news story or press release to point to detailing an individual being denied his religious beliefs by the government.
| I'm not talking about beliefs. I'm talking about expression of those beliefs. And no I don't have any examples. But if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it does it make a noise?
__________________
Scoutmaster Ed | |
When Poe ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.