Is Etiquette Dead?

[realtraveller]

Yesterday, we hosted a birthday party for my twins. They invited many school and neighborhood friends. Literally half of those invited never responded to the invitation one way or another. The printed invitation clearly stated "RSVP" with our telephone number.

What is going on here?

Do people no longer know what RSVP means?

Are people too busy to take 30 seconds out of their days to call and send regrets?

All of the kids who failed to respond are second-generation Americans. Their parents are from Vietnam, The Philippines, Egypt, Peru and Mexico. Perhaps they are unsure of their English. Perhaps the use of the French phrase "RSVP" doesn't translate.

At least my kids have learned a lesson in the importance of good etiquette, which really is just common courtesy. They were so disappointed that their friends never responded to their invitations that I am sure they will never make that mistake.

[Joubert[$]]

I asked that question of several staff members recently regarding a holiday function to which we had been invited. Three mid-level managers all told me that they thought RSVP meant that they should call to accept rather than simply show up.

An Emily Post volume might be their holiday gift this year.

[realtraveller]

I'm thinking of writing a letter to the principal or the teachers asking that simple etiquette lessons be included in a reading or writing exercise in class. But it's not only the kids who need etiquette instruction, it's the parents.

[drmomentum[$]]

Fie on those people!

[AdaDavis]

Originally posted by realtraveller

All of the kids who failed to respond are second-generation Americans. Their parents are from Vietnam, The Philippines, Egypt, Peru and Mexico. Perhaps they are unsure of their English. Perhaps the use of the French phrase "RSVP" doesn't translate.

And there you have the problem - none of these kids (or parents) hailed from the Great Continent of Europe or Britain, and are unlikely to have known what RSVP meant. Not everyone comes from the world of Emily Post.

All unknowing, you (and the rest of us) often violate the rules of etiquette that THEY understand. (For example - in Korea when some official does you a favor, you are expected to respond with an appropriate gift. This is not bribery, but part of the cultural etiquette. Americans habitually insult the local officials because WE don't like to give "bribes"!) Ever read or see A Passage to India ? A simple invitation from a British lady caused untolled distress among the Indians, who had no idea what the proper response should be - that would neither offend the British nor bankrupt the relatively poor Indian doctor.

And you don't have to be second-generation immigrants to have that problem. American Indian children have the same problems fitting in to the white European culture.

Some parents might also have been hesitant to respond because they thought the party would require elaborate gifts for each "party child", and they were baffled by what to bring, or though an appropriate gift would be beyond their means. In many of the countries of the Far east and Pacific, a birthday gift isn't just some toy you pick up at the local market - it has meaning!

They may also have thought that the invitation was just a formality and they were not expected to come or respond. (e.g. Was the invitation handwitten, or did it contain a handwritten note? If not, some would see that as a token, rather than a real invitation. Some Hispanic or Eastern families do not really think you want them at your party.)

I'm all for doing away with archaic French rules that everyone is supposed to "know". In future, maybe you could say "Please call me at # to say whether or not your child will be attending." Let them know that gifts are not a requirement, just their presence is enough, because the "party people" want to share a party with friends. If they haven't responded a couple of days before the party, maybe you could call them? I opt for kindness and clarity over the rules of dead Europeans, any day. The last census showed that White Europeans are now the minority in the USA, and getting "minority-er" every year. Maybe it is time for the minority to stop dictating the cultural rules? (says she, who is mostly Choctaw Indian - so I am obviously biased)

You want the schools to teach etiquette. But whose? Must everyone conform to antique European norms, even though they are not from Europe?

Okay, you can start yelling at me now ...

Ada
an old curmudgeon, but a well-travelled one.

[Joubert[$]]

I agree with just about everything Ada said, but also feel:

On the subject of etiquette, much of America has based acceptable behaviors on the antiquated norms of Emily Post-style etiquette. Society is dynamic, however, and direct langauge is always better. I know I have a different opinion on what semi-formal dress means than others.

Meanwhile, if a parent receives an invitation to a child's party and they don't understand something (e.g., the meaning of RSVP), they should pick up the phone and ask. I believe that's simply being polite.

[bwyckoff1]

Good manners are somthing that is slowly but surely becoming a thing of the past. People just don't care enough. I remember being in the same situation and ending up calling the people who did not respond to find out if they were coming. It is extremely embarrassing to do that- but I felt what was right was right.

[realtraveller]

I tend to think that the lack of an RSVP, call it common courtesy that everyone from any nationality should understand, goes deeper than lack of etiquette understanding on the part of the parents. (Although I do think that if you move into a country, you should be knowledgeable about the etiquette of that place and attempt to follow it.)

But I think there are broader social issues at play here:

I live in an area of Southern California that is highly transient. People live here but work all over the area. There is little feeling of "community". We bought our house seven years ago, and except for our family, almost all the houses around us have changed hands. The school population is of course, likewise mobile. There are some of the same kids there who started kindergarten with my kids but many have left and there are many new faces. I see these kids parents when I pick them up at school but I rarely see them elsewhere--shopping, clubs etc. It's a city of 11 million.

What am I getting at? This would not have happened in a small town where people know each other and are likely to know each other for the rest of their lives. Where I grew up, many of the kids with whom I went to school are still there. Their kids are there, their grandparents are there. People don't just blow each other off because they can't. Not unless they want the word to get all over town and get a reputation for rudeness.

In the big city, you get no reputation for rudeness because you have no reputation.

Rudeness exists because we are a city of strangers. You don't have to be nice, you'll likely never see the other person again. Here the concern for neighbors tilts more to "is my neighbor's home's appearance going to affect my property values when I move". It is not "I may be living next to this person for many, many years, I want to be friends. I'll just have to tolerate the fact that he needs to mow his yard more often."

Because I grew up in a small town, I worry about my kids growing up in a city. I doubt this is a good place to grow up. I worry about the transient nature of city relationships. I worry about what lessons it teaches to kids.

Am I off base here as an amateur sociologist?

[cristina1]

Just wondering - how old are your twins? I ask because of what happened to us a few weeks ago. Zachary said something on a Friday night about going to school the next day. I told him that it is Saturday and he doesnt go to school on the weekends. He told me that he does go to school because it it Hanna's birthday and she is having a party. This was the first I ever heard about it.

I never saw an invitation and had no clue who Hanna was. I dont know if he was really invited to a party, or if he heard other kids talking about it, or if he was just totally making the whole thing up.

I found out after that Hanna certainly did have a party and invited everyone in the class. Obviously we were one of the non-RSVP'ing no shows. I didnt mean to be though. And although I did talk to Hanna's mother about it, I would have never known the difference had Zach not mentioned it that night.

Of course, my son in 4. I would imagine older kids would know better.........lol.

[slick4591[$]]

But then there's always the forget old dumbass like myself. Many times I'll get one and lay it aside thinking about it. While thinking about it, I forget about it. Not intentional, of course, but it leaves my little noggin'.

Nope, It ain't a good excuse, but it's the truth.

[kurt_messick]

The conventional rules are unknown any more. Alas.

RSVP usually means respond if you're coming, to most people.

I usually add 'RSVP acceptance or regrets'

Of course, I rarely have such events any more, outside of a churchy context, which has a different set of rules. And with no kids, no worries in that regard too. Alas...

[magenta321]

Originally posted by realtraveller

Rudeness exists because we are a city of strangers. You don't have to be nice, you'll likely never see the other person again. Here the concern for neighbors tilts more to "is my neighbor's home's appearance going to affect my property values when I move". It is not "I may be living next to this person for many, many years, I want to be friends. I'll just have to tolerate the fact that he needs to mow his yard more often."

Because I grew up in a small town, I worry about my kids growing up in a city. I doubt this is a good place to grow up. I worry about the transient nature of city relationships. I worry about what lessons it teaches to kids.

Am I off base here as an amateur sociologist?

I disagree. I live in a very small town. I've lived here all my life. I have never spoke to either one of my next door neighbors, or anyone else on my street for that matter. We are friendly. We wave hello. We mow our lawn weekly (when it's warm and there is a lawn to mow) so as not to let property values drop. I don't want to know my neighbors. They are not my age, nor are they my parents age. I would be suprised if more than three people on our street knew one another. I don't think it's rude. I actually feel it's polite. If I am getting my mail, I don't want to do anything more than acknowledge your presence with a wave. I don't want to stop and chat. I would feel very weird if my neighbors spoke to me. Moreover, I would feel rude if I bothered them while they were in their yards. I feel like your yard, and your home is your sanctuary. When you are at work or social settings, you are on camera, otherwise, I don't think you need to be bothered, or to bother other people. I guess you'd hate me as a neighbor , but I don't feel I am rude at all. And apparently, my neighbors feel the same way we do. I don't think they are rude, I think they are following the norms of our neighborhood.

Now, what I just said was somewhat of a tangent, but I think it is telling of greater things. We both are from small towns, yet have totally different ideas of how it is appropriate to behave around neighbors.

I think people of different cultures can have an even harder time understanding what is expected of them. I am not sure how old your children are, but if they are that age where they talk to their friends on the phone, perhaps they should be the ones to call their friends and say "hey, are you coming to our party?" That takes the pressure off of you, and off of the other parents, who might have a harder knowing how to conform to the norms than the children do.

Margaret, who would much prefer it if she could not see her neighbor's homes.

[mshawpyle]

Originally posted by AdaDavis
All unknowing, you (and the rest of us) often violate the rules of etiquette that THEY understand. (For example - in Korea when some official does you a favor, you are expected to respond with an appropriate gift. This is not bribery, but part of the cultural etiquette. Americans habitually insult the local officials because WE don't like to give "bribes"!)

Of course, one reason we don't follow that rule of etiquette overseas is that Americans remain subject to the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. I don't like insulting my hosts, but I'll take that risk over a stay in Leavenworth any day.

[kurt_messick]

From a kid's birthday invitation to Leavenworth in a few simple steps. Sounds like a Washington plan to me!

[frazzledspice]

Heah in the South, y'all, where I have lived for all of 20 months, the young ladies and young gentlemen go to the Cotillion in sixth through ninth grade.

The young ladies wear their pretty dresses and white gloves (because the boys' hands get sweaty.) They learn etiquette and social dancing.

Since my daughter is a Southern belle in training, we decided to send her.

Unfortunately, one of the things that I learned in the 20 months I lived here is that just because people have learned Southern etiquette doesn't always mean they're genuinely nice, not by a long shot.

The thin veneer of etiquette sometimes cloaks a devil's soul.

There are many nice people here, but it took longer to find them here than anywhere else I'd ever lived. Whether they're just in short supply or whether I was just unlucky in the beginning, I can't tell.

One southern belle actually wrote me an anonymous poison pen letter, enumerating all my character flaws. (My primary one being that I say what I think, WITHOUT writing anonymous poison pen letters.)

I lived in New York for 75% of my life, and nothing like that had ever happened there....

[mjfrombuffalo[$]]

It's not just those second-generation Americans who don't RSVP! I had to call 20 of the 100 people I invited to my wedding since I hadn't heard word one from them about if they were going to attend. One actually told me she hadn't decided yet if she was coming (it was five days away). Out of the 80 who said yes, only 63 showed up. Told me who earned a spot on the Christmas Card list and who didn't, that's for sure, as I paid for those extra uneaten meals...

I'm Matron of my Eastern Star chapter. We had about four fundraisers this year and three receptions which included catered meals. Each time there were definite deadlines for purchasing tickets. Each time there were phone calls from people after the deadline asking if they could attend. Each time there were people we hadn't heard from AT ALL who just showed up at the door and expected a seat. Set the deadline and stick to it? Too risky. One fundraiser had only 24 tickets sold by the deadline, 25 more tickets sold between deadline and day of event, and another 14 showed up at the door. I'd have LOST money on the fundraiser if I hadn't allowed the late-comers. So we set deadlines earlier than they have to be and order food for about 15 more people than we think will show up. These people are predominately WASPs between the ages of 30 and 90, suburbanites, almost all third- fourth- or fifth-generation Americans.

It'd probably be easier just looking into a crystal ball to get a pre-dinner headcount.

mj

[realtraveller]

I seem to have struck a nerve. Despite the other comments on small towns, I still think that it's the feeling of anonymity we have in many areas of society that "permits" rude behavior to thrive.

For example, road rage. People feel fairly anonymous in their cars and freer to give another person the finger.

There was the example of the poison pen letter written anonymously.

So many of our social relationships with other people are so fleeting, so short-lived. I just can't help feeling that this has consequences for modern life that our less mobile ancestors didn't face.

[emeleel]

I think it's that people just haven't been taught to respond politely. You've really hit a nerve with me on the birthday thing - I'm STILL steamed about Sean's 5th and Erin's 2nd birthday party!

Their birthdays are only 2.5 weeks apart. Last year, hubby was working out of town 75% of the time and was only home one weekend/month. So since they're young and wouldn't mind, I combined their birthdays into one party.

We don't have a lot of friends. There are no kids in our neighborhood, they don't go to daycare or school, so church friends are really the only close friends we have. We attend a small congregation, and there are really only 3 other families who attend regularly that we are friends with who have kids the same ages. One family NEVER attends other kids birthday parties, so I didn't expect them. However, they never tell you that they're not coming, they just never show up. We've known them long enough to expect this, but it's still rude. (They don't even acknowledge other kids birthdays in person at other times - no "Happy Birthdays" or presents or anything. It's not that I expect presents, but verbal acknowledgement of my children's birthdays would be nice!)*

Another family did tell me that they would be out of town. Okay, fine, no problem. The other family told me that they would probably come - and then they didn't.

I made goody bags for the kids, went online and found coloring pages to make homemade coloring books (it was a Toy Story party) and then NO KIDS AT ALL CAME. The attendees were: my mom, a cousin, his wife and baby, and one couple from church who had no kids at the time. Isn't that an awful turn-out for a kid's 5th birthday? I was so upset - luckily, Sean could have cared less and of course Erin was too young to know or care. But I almost cried when I went to bed that night.



* For this family's oldest child's 4th birthday, they rented a moon bounce thingy for their backyard, had a "lucky duck" pond, a face painting booth, a goody-bag "fishing" stand, an expensive Little Mermaid cake, and other goodies that the kids got to take home. After seeing that, I think I know why they don't attend other kids' parties - they needed to save their money!

[realtraveller]

My kids ninth birthday party turned out to be a lesson on how to be a friend and how not to be a friend. There were kids who said they were going to come and didn't. Then there were the kids who never responded at all.

My kids were extremely disappointed that kids they thought were good friends didn't respond or didn't come when they said they were going to come.

But I think they internalized the Golden Rule and will never treat their friends in such a callous way.

And our project for tonight is to send out the Thank You cards. Another etiquette lesson that seems to be going by the wayside.

[vonboob]

Well, I am not born here but I've seen the cards: please RSVP... People "who know" would never use such redundancy.
Funny nobody mentioned it yet: SVP is an abbreviation of S'il Vous Plait. "R" stands for "Repondez" and there is no issue about if someone is coming or not: Reply Please
Sounds so much better and there is no French involved...

[frazzledspice]

Kathy said: "What am I getting at? This would not have happened in a small town where people know each other and are likely to know each other for the rest of their lives. Where I grew up, many of the kids with whom I went to school are still there. Their kids are there, their grandparents are there. People don't just blow each other off because they can't. Not unless they want the word to get all over town and get a reputation for rudeness. "

____________________________________________________

I agree, Kathy. People in a small town would not blow off the people they have known all their lives, the people whose parents, grandparents, and great grandparents went to school together.

Had you come as an outsider to one of these small towns (and I live in a city of 85,000, so I suppose it doesn't really qualify as a "small" town) you would find that these same people who are courteous to one another are very discourteous and unfriendly to newcomers.

I would choose the transient "corporate relocation" subdivision I lived in for 9 years any day over the close-minded society that goes out of its way to pretend that newcomers don't exist. In the transient subdivision, everyone had come from somewhere else, and they were highly motivated to make friends, just as we were.

After searching and searching and finally finding people who didn't give a hoot that we weren't third generation Arkansans, I am finally adjusting. But I think that sometimes outsiders see the psychopathology in small towns far more than the people whose families have been there for generations.

[realtraveller]

Frazz. our experiences are entirely different. My small town (5,000 population) was also close to an Air Force base. So we had a continual supply of newcomers to town. They moved in and moved out when they were tranferred. I lived there for 17 years and my parents still live there. The Air Force people are not shunned at all but are welcomed as part of the community for as long as they stay.