Has someone been sitting on the FBI?

[erik_kosberg]

Not without bias or difficult-to-corroborate-statements, but an interesting read nevertheless:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/eve...00/1645527.stm

[AuntieEmma[$]]

I think it's plausible. It doesn't necessarily mean anything that the FBI was "concerned" (that's a quote from the article) -- I mean, the FBI is "concerned" about a lot of organizations and people who turn out to be perfectly benign. But I do think something is going on. What we know, I think, for a fact is that George Bush the elder had business dealings with the bin Laden family; that the family was whisked out of the country after September 11 and not even questioned very much; that we're giving the Saudis a free pass; that the public's anger is being carefully directed towards the Taliban and Osama and away from everybody else.

And I think you can never go wrong, when trying to figure out this administration's action, in looking at the role of oil.

BTW, I predict that work on the oil pipeline across Afghanistan will begin within a year.

[poseidon]

Originally posted by AuntieEmma
I think you can never go wrong, when trying to figure out this administration's action, in looking at the role of oil.

Are you suspicious of those who sit on the CFR and the Tri-Lateral Commission as well? Do you see Black Helicopters? Are we secretly hiding space aliens in the Nevada desert?

Hehe, I love conspiracy theories.

[poseidon]

I love Peter Elsner's quote... damn I thought he was talking about Bill Clinton!

How can it be that the former President of the US and the current President of the US have business dealings with characters that need to be investigated?

[kurt_messick]

I thought the aliens in the Nevada desert were on the Trilateral Commission.

At least, I wondered who those green people were at the last meeting...

[AuntieEmma[$]]

Hmmm ... I remember getting almost an identical reaction -- sarcastic remarks about wacky conspiracy theories -- here last summer, when I talked about the California so-called energy crisis, when I said there was no real shortage, that the "crisis" was something created by the energy companies and promoted by the administration.

And now Enron has been caught with their pants down. Anyone care to defend them now?

I would bet a lot of money that we're going to see that pipeline built across Afghanistan very soon. I would put that in writing. In fact I just did.

Sarcasm is easy. I challenge anyone who thinks that what I'm saying isn't true to address specific points. Which of the following things that I said above do you believe to be untrue, and on what basis? :

What we know, I think, for a fact is that George Bush the elder had business dealings with the bin Laden family; that the family was whisked out of the country after September 11 and not even questioned very much; that we're giving the Saudis a free pass; that the public's anger is being carefully directed towards the Taliban and Osama and away from everybody else.

[cristina1]

Looking at two specific quotes:

Do I know that as far back as 1996 the FBI was very concerned about this organisation? I do.

and

The attack on the World Trade Center in 1993 did not shake the State Department's faith in the Saudis, nor did the attack on American barracks at Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia three years later, in which 19 Americans died. FBI agents began to feel their investigation was being obstructed. Would you be surprised to find out that FBI agents are a bit frustrated that they can't be looking into some Saudi connections?

My question is that if this is all about the Bush family and oil, what exactly was Clinton doing? This IS the time period of his presidency.

[poseidon]

Another question is... can these claims be substantiated? I see detractors saying things, making statements, but not supplying proof.

If there were no flights out of any airport, small or large, aside from military, how exactly could the bin Laden family be "whisked away" on a charter jet?

[theeye]

Originally posted by poseidon
If there were no flights out of any airport, small or large, aside from military, how exactly could the bin Laden family be "whisked away" on a charter jet?

CBS news story from Sept 30.

Two dozen members of Osama bin Laden's family were urgently evacuated from the United States in the first days following the terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, according to the Saudi ambassador to Washington.

They left the country on a private charter plane when airports reopened three days after the attacks.

I don't see any reason to doubt the veracity of a perfectly plausible public statement by the ambassador.

Unless, of course, you've got a conspiracy theory to float.

[AuntieEmma[$]]

Originally posted by poseidon
Another question is... can these claims be substantiated? I see detractors saying things, making statements, but not supplying proof.

If there were no flights out of any airport, small or large, aside from military, how exactly could the bin Laden family be "whisked away" on a charter jet?

Oh, that one is a clear fact. I saw interviews on TV with members of the bin Laden family, and there have been a million stories written about it. I think they left as soon as flights resumed. Hold on, let me see if I can find a link ...

Okay, that wasn't too hard. From that infamous mouthpiece for black-helicopter-spotting conspiracy nuts, CBS News:

(CBS) Two dozen members of Osama bin Laden's family were urgently evacuated from the United States in the first days following the terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, according to the Saudi ambassador to Washington ...

Most of bin Laden's relatives were attending high school and college. The young members of the bin Laden family were driven or flown under FBI supervision to a secret place in Texas and then to Washington, The Times reported Sunday....

They left the country on a private charter plane when airports reopened three days after the attacks....

http://www.cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1...8-412,00.shtml

Still think this is something only a wacko conspiracy theorist could believe?

[AuntieEmma[$]]

Hey, Eye, stop doing that! This simultaneous posting stuff is eerie!

[theeye]

We seem to do this a lot, don't we Auntie?

[theeye]

Heh, you beat me that time. :p

[poseidon]

First of all, thank you for the link. Now that I've got the story, let's analyze this, shall we, before we start jumping to conspiracy theories by the Bush family.

One of bin Laden's brothers frantically called the Saudi Arabian Embassy in Washington looking for protection, Prince Bandar bin Sultan told The New York Times. The brother was sent to a room in the Watergate Hotel and was told not to open the door.

Most of bin Laden's relatives were attending high school and college. The young members of the bin Laden family were driven or flown under FBI supervision to a secret place in Texas and then to Washington, The Times reported Sunday.

Many were terrified, fearing they would be lynched after hearing reports of violence against Muslims and Arab-Americans.

Now, seriously, who here doubts the verocity of the statement? Place yourself in their shoes...

1. You're related to Osama.
2. You know that Osama is the prime suspect (it didn't take a genius to figure that one out the second terrorism was suspected).
3. You know that Americans have a history of vigilantism when it comes to this sort of thing.
4. You're not a citizen of this country.
5. You're deeply concerned that you're going to be a target of vigilantism.

King Fahd, the ailing Saudi ruler, sent an urgent message to his embassy in Washington pointing out that there were "bin Laden children all over America" and ordered, "Take measures to protect the innocents," the ambassador said.

So, if say Tony Blair (another one of our allies) felt some sort of deep and very real concern for the safety of his citizens in this country, and made a personal request to do something to protect them, we wouldn't do the same thing? I'm willing to bet we would.

Bin Laden is estranged from his family and from Saudi Arabia, which revoked his citizenship in the early 1990s after he was caught smuggling weapons from Yemen.

While you and I and most informed people know this tidbit of information, do you think that the people who engage in vigilantism are aware of it? I think not.

Again, I don't see the conspiracy theory here. Please explain it to me with some rational facts and information.

[AuntieEmma[$]]

Originally posted by theeye
Heh, you beat me that time. :p

And that makes another one. Hah. Well, you know, great minds think alike and all that ... but it is eerie that we came up with a link to the same exact story, considering the number of stories that have been written about this ... I think I hear that Twilight Zone music playing ...

[poseidon]

Originally posted by AuntieEmma
Still think this is something only a wacko conspiracy theorist could believe?

Yeah, I do.

[theeye]

I'm not a big believer in the Bush conspiracy theory myself, but I think the basis of the argument is one fact that you overlooked:

6. The U.S. government lets you get out of the country instead of detaining you for questioning.

Putting yourself in the shoes of an FBI which has been detaining all sorts of folks, many of whom seem to have had no connection at all to terrorism, is it not also plausible to expect them to have some interest in detaining the relatives?

[theeye]

Originally posted by AuntieEmma


And that makes another one. Hah. Well, you know, great minds think alike and all that ... but it is eerie that we came up with a link to the same exact story, considering the number of stories that have been written about this ... I think I hear that Twilight Zone music playing ...

Nah. I think I hear the Google theme song playing. I bet you went to google.com, typed in something like "bin Laden relatives charter plane" and then clicked on the first link from a reputable news source.

That's what I did.

No supernatural events or conspiracy theories needed.

[poseidon]

Originally posted by theeye
I'm not a big believer in the Bush conspiracy theory myself, but I think the basis of the argument is one fact that you overlooked:

6. The U.S. government lets you get out of the country instead of detaining you for questioning.

Putting yourself in the shoes of an FBI which has been detaining all sorts of folks, many of whom seem to have had no connection at all to terrorism, is it not also plausible to expect them to have some interest in detaining the relatives?

No. I would think that the FBI is already aware of some of Osama's closer relatives and is likely keeping a close eye on their activity within this country. High-profile people that you may already be watching is easier to keep constant tabs on than people being picked up in a general profiling manner.

[theeye]

Originally posted by poseidon


No. I would think that the FBI is already aware of some of Osama's closer relatives and is likely keeping a close eye on their activity within this country. High-profile people that you may already be watching is easier to keep constant tabs on than people being picked up in a general profiling manner.

Ok, that's a perfectly plausible explanation of why the FBI would let them go -- they've already investigated them thoroughly and decided they're ok. Makes sense to me.

OTOH, I do think it's also plausible to expect that the FBI might just want to ask them a few more questions before they left. They could certainly keep them in protective custody prior to "wisking them away".

I don't buy into the conspiracy theory, but I can see how some eyebrows might be raised.

[poseidon]

I see it a different way. If you're predisposed to not liking G.W. to begin with, then when a conspiracy theory comes along the pike you're more apt to buy into it or at least hope that it is true. I saw the same thing go on for eight years with Bill Clinton. Perfectly reasonable friends of mine who I would consider very level-minded, very sane, etc. were repeating conspiracy theories as Gospel. When you simply sat down and reasoned it out, it just didn't mesh.

No one would have wanted to have some of those conspiracy theories about the Clintons to be true more than myself, because no one disliked the Clintons more than I did (and do, I still think they are trailer trash scum who wouldn't know the truth if it bit them both on their arses). But I never bought into the conspiracy theories surrounding them.

Conspiracies on a small scale are difficult enough as it is. Conspiracies on a large scale are nearly impossible because of the need of weak-willed people to gossip and spill the beans, thus ruining carefully (or not so carefully) laid out plans.

[AuntieEmma[$]]

Originally posted by theeye


Nah. I think I hear the Google theme song playing. I bet you went to google.com, typed in something like "bin Laden relatives charter plane" and then clicked on the first link from a reputable news source.

That's what I did.

Ah, the great Google conspiracy. Yeah, that's what I did too. Except I wasn't as efficient in my search -- I typed in something like "bin Laden's family" -- and had to scroll past nearly a page of real conspiracy theory stuff.

No supernatural events or conspiracy theories needed.

It's a CBS conspiracy to get their articles ranked high in the search engines!

----------------

Originally posted by theeye
I'm not a big believer in the Bush conspiracy theory myself, but I think the basis of the argument is one fact that you overlooked:

6. The U.S. government lets you get out of the country instead of detaining you for questioning.

Putting yourself in the shoes of an FBI which has been detaining all sorts of folks, many of whom seem to have had no connection at all to terrorism, is it not also plausible to expect them to have some interest in detaining the relatives?

That's exactly what I would have said (simultaneously, if I had been a bit quicker! )

Even if none of the bin Laden siblings supported what their brother was doing (which is in itself debatable), of all the people that we could get our hands on immediately, the bin Laden siblings were probably the most likely to have some idea where he might be and what he might be up to, or at least to have some information about him that would be helpful to us in figuring those things out.

As far as their being in danger from a mob attack ... yes, I believe that was true. But many other people were also in danger -- a few, in fact, were actually killed by mobs -- and they didn't get the royal treatment.

And if their danger was such a concern to us ... and since we were already doing massive roundups of people ... why not put them in protective custody for a while, at least until their was enough time to question them? It could have even been luxurious protective custody in some four-star hotel ...

[poseidon]

the bin Laden siblings were probably the most likely to have some idea where he might be and what he might be up to, or at least to have some information about him that would be helpful to us in figuring those things out.

Well, if you were trying to find my brother, and