Interesting meditation on online persona(e)...

[caravan70]

Jon Carroll's column in the Chronicle yesterday presented an interesting take on the nature of online identity:

The column...

I thought all might enjoy taking a look at it, and I'd be interested in reactions. It speaks to the fluid nature of personality in a Web context...

Hope all are well as summer approaches...

Darren

[magenta321]

This has happened in the Epinions community before, and some fear it is happening again. The part in the article that got me was:

Seems to me Debbie Swenson was an artist using the tools at her disposal. She was a writer who wanted an audience, and she found a way to get one. Sure she lied a little -- have you never lied to get a job you really wanted? Did it even matter once it was clear that you could do a good job?

1. The audience doesn't know this is a work of fiction. They invest in you emotionally.

2. In some cases, people go through your pain with you. They relive traumatic experiences, and believe they can relate for you.

3. Someone who would do this needs a. a lot of attention, b. pyschiatric evaluation, and c. to get some friends. This is just sick, sick, sick. If you want to write fiction, write fiction. Don't defraud people for attention, and sympathy because you are starved for love.

Those are just my thoughts, however. Hmm. Me thinks this is going to get moved to the Soapbox Me thinks people will have to work hard not to wink and nudge.

[cyndilouwhoo]

Hmmm....interesting indeed.

And yes Margaret, methinks this would be an interesting topic of discussion for the Soapbox as well...or (due to the number of sock puppets hanging around the mothersite) the epinions discussion page--no names of course...

I am of mixed emotions about this. I am not so sure that this is such a terrible thing, per se. This woman (as far as the op ed piece itself says) did nothing but write a story. She didn't ask people for money or gifts (wonder what happened to the gifts she did get); reading her work was not a requirement. No one was defrauded of anything--but their emotions.

Yeah, we can work ourselves into a high dudgeon on that last point, but in the final analysis, there's no more harm done by feeling cheated over a fictitious persona than there is feeling cheated by a bad ending in "real life"--or a movie for that matter.

We also know that the internet is the last wild frontier. We are all warned to be careful, that things are not always as they seem. Are we more angry at her for perpetuating the fraud? Or for ourselves for falling for it?

Just wondering

Cyndi

[amykhar]

Personally, I think that fiction should be declared as fiction. Fiction still has the power to move people, and to make them feel. People still would have followed the author's writing if she had told the truth.

The real danger that I see in hoaxes like this is that people will eventually become jaded and stop caring about the real people in need.

It's one thing to use a fake name or even a fake gender on the Internet. It's another thing entirely to make up a life that will intentionally suck people into caring for you and feeling badly for you.

To me, creating a life like this reeks of the Munchausen by proxy syndrome. These peope need drama and attention, and will bring it upon themselves however they possibly can.

The fact that it was an ongoing thing even though the author knew that people believed the girl to be real is what makes this not a case of an "artist" creating a story, but a attention seeker looking for love and affection from strangers - with no regard to the feelings of those strangers.

Amy

[cristina1]

"Personally, I think that fiction should be declared as fiction. Fiction still has the power to move people, and to make them feel. People still would have followed the author's writing if she had told the truth. "

I agree completely with Amy. Somehow, emotions get MORE involved when the story is true rather than a piece of fiction. The very fact that people sent gifts shows this. Would someone send a gift to an author of fiction? Of course not.

This sort of thing happened on my pregnancy email loop just after we all had our babies. One woman wrote the list saying her son was very sick and had to go in the hospital. The next thing we knew, he was dead. It was a terrible time for all the new moms, and each time a baby sneezed someone would freak out that it could happen to our child. (This woman went through 7 months of pregnancy with us all, and then the births. She even wrote her birth story and shared it.) It ended up being fake - after we all chipped in to send her money and gifts. She was a 15 year old girl, never pregnant and decided to make up a story out of boredom.

Yes, if this girl wanted to write a story about losing a child after birth, she has every right to do so. However, she did not have the right to force it on all of us - especially a group of new moms. Yes, we all chose to be on the email loop, but we did so for encouragement and support with people going through the same thing at the same time - not to be the audience of someone else's imagination.

There are plenty of places on the net to post fictional stories and declare them as such. There is no need to lie to your audience and have them believe truth over fiction.

[frazzledspice]

I have known several children who have had leukemia, including a very brave girl, twelve, who died in June, 1997.

Her hobby in the hospital was making angels. Right before falling ill, she had designed an angel Christmas tree ornament for the Girl Scouts. It was made of an aluminum can, spray painted silver or gold. The pop top was taken off and glued on as a holder. The circle where the pop top had been was the angel's mouth. Add googly eyes, some yarn hair, and gossamer wings, and you had an adorable angel (made of recycled materials.)

In the hospital, she made angels for the other sick children and the staff who cared for her.

Our community did lots of card sending, fund raising, etc. for Julie. Because she lived in South Dakota, she was hospitalized for months in Omaha, 130 miles away, which created a hardship for the family.

There are so many children with cancer who really need our help, our prayers, our cards, etc. Isn't it wrong to siphon off these prayers, offerings, and cards from the children who really need it?

I will never look at an angel again without thinking of this child.

[cyndilouwhoo]

There are a few differences between some of the things cited as "harmful" in this thread and what actually occurred (according to the column. I freely admit I didn't follow this story, I only read the Op-Ed piece)

Munchausen's is not harmless--and I don't believe the comparison between a story written on the internet to elicit bogus sympathy and causing real and physical harm to another person measures up equally.

No one rhetorically yelled "fire" in a crowded theatre by writing this story.

And no one "forced" the story on anyone else. It was on the web for folks to read--or not. It wasn't placed on a bbs to follow. It was on a website that people may or may not have had the good fortune to have stumbled upon.

I don't doubt for a minute that this person has a bit of "attention getter" in her personality. But I also believe that the only "harm" done here was to our delicate sensibilities. No one likes being tricked. But it happens. Has our sensitivity as human beings been offended? Absolutely. Have we as a society been harmed by the deception? I don't believe it has.

Cyndi

[cristina1]

"But I also believe that the only "harm" done here was to our delicate sensibilities. No one likes being tricked. But it happens. Has our sensitivity as human beings been offended? Absolutely. Have we as a society been harmed by the deception? I don't believe it has."

But what if it were stumbled upon by people that possibly had a realtive or friend that died of cancer that was searching the web for support and people with similar experiences. I dont know the details to the story either, but I am assuming that it was listed in the search engines. I am also wondering how much in depth this went. Did the woman list an email address and communicate with these people? How and where did they send gifts? It just seems a whole lot more personal than just writing a story.

And as Fraz mentioned, maybe the gifts and well wishes sent to this fictional person could have been sent instead to a real human being that is in serious need of them.

[poseidon]

I don't want to get into mentioning names, but many of us have fallen for the fictional character/traumatic experience thing in our own Epinions community. Most of you know who have been around awhile know exactly who I'm talking about. It was painful to learn that hopes, prayers and thoughts were wasted because someone pretended to be somebody they weren't.

I think I'll just refrain from going further...

[cyndilouwhoo]

Originally posted by cristina1
But what if it were stumbled upon by people that possibly had a realtive or friend that died of cancer that was searching the web for support and people with similar experiences. I dont know the details to the story either, but I am assuming that it was listed in the search engines. I am also wondering how much in depth this went. Did the woman list an email address and communicate with these people? How and where did they send gifts? It just seems a whole lot more personal than just writing a story.

And as Fraz mentioned, maybe the gifts and well wishes sent to this fictional person could have been sent instead to a real human being that is in serious need of them.

All interesting questions.

But I am starting to believe my own made on a whim argument in favor of the relative harmlessness of this story.

In a personal sense, if I came upon a website talking about the continuing story of a woman surviving in the wake of a relative's suicide (my brother killed himself this past March) and I discovered after investing the time and effort it took to follow the story, that it was all a lie, I would be devastated. Emotionally speaking, it would strike me as the ultimate betrayal. I would use all the arguments you all have used to lash out at the author.

But would I really have a case to make for "harm" to me (so to speak)? I am beginning to think not.

Emotions are intangibles. They are universally felt, yet they are our own. They are uniquely personal. They are shared. They are priceless, but when the rubber hits the road, bruised emotions have no worth whatsoever in terms of harm.

I thought Fraz' argument was the most interesting though. Does the perpetration of this kind of deception harden us to the point where long term we won't ever give of ourselves to another person again?

Geez, I hope not. Because if that is true, then stories like this are at the very top of an extremely slippery slope.

Cyndi

[cristina1]

"Emotions are intangibles. They are universally felt, yet they are our own. They are uniquely personal. They are shared. They are priceless, but when the rubber hits the road, bruised emotions have no worth whatsoever in terms of harm. "

Maybe emotions have no worth, and I am not suggesting suing this person for monetary value (if that is what you meant), however, this type of thing that takes advantage of human emotions and acts of kindness to strangers is a big problem in my eyes. Why? Because general acts of human kindness to strangers is rare enough. The more people that get hurt or burned in situations like this, the less likely they will repeat their mistake. It will get to the point where no one cares. And as I said, it just sounds a lot more personal than just a story for people to be able to send gifts.

Would a disclaimer that this woman was writing fiction have been that big a deal to save so many people's feelings?

[amykhar]

I also am not saying that the person should be sued or charged. However, she has done harm. If she has taken away even one kind word or act that would have been directed to a truly ill person because her actions made somebody less trusting, she has done harm.

In addition, some things are just plain wrong - maybe not illegal, but still wrong.

If you think about it, just about any other media clearly marks and differentiates between truth and fiction. It is done for a reason. If you want people to believe you when you ARE telling the truth, you have to be trustworthy and reliable.

Yes, this is probably a lesson to all readers to consider their sources, but it doesn't excuse the author.

Finally, are we to believe that the woman never responded to the emails and gifts that she received? If she did so, did she do so honestly and in her own name and offer to return the gifts or donate them to the truly needy? THAT, and getting free web hosting donated is where she really crossed the line.

Amy

[cristina1]

"Finally, are we to believe that the woman never responded to the emails and gifts that she received? If she did so, did she do so honestly and in her own name and offer to return the gifts or donate them to the truly needy? THAT, and getting free web hosting donated is where she really crossed the line.

Amy"

I agree with you, Amy. And in any other circumstance, actions such as these would be considered fraud and be illegal.

[magenta321]

Someone mentioned that these "hoaxes" can make us jaded to people who truly are ill. Not too long ago, when RoadieM passed away many of us expressed sentiments like "If it's true I feel awful, but I can't help the sneaking suspicion that this is a hoax." I think that many people thought about "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" (WWNN) when that happened.

I don't know if you were here for the WWNN scandal, but a lot of people really believed in WWNN. And when WWNN supposedly had a miscarriage, a lot of other women who had been through the pain started to relive it with her. They wrote her sympathy emails, and talked about their own pain. They relived it to reach out to her, and to try to help her. They kept her in their hearts and prayers. Imagine their horror when they found out it was a lie.

That time was really a sad time at Epinions. WWNN hurt so many people in her quest for attention. It wasn't a work of fiction, it was a work of deception. It made us all less trusting, and many people felt a great deal of pain because of WWNN.

[conradd]

Honesty, as a policy and code of ethics to live by, is sadly underrated in this society. In the case Jeff speaks of, other women who had real problems - one with a very sick child and one who had a high-risk pregnancy - were reluctant to ask for emotional help from on-line friends when they needed it because of the recently perpetuated fraud.

While I admire creative writers and those who can tell a good tale, there is a reason why non-fiction and fiction books are separated in bookstores. If someone needs to deceive in order to make their life more complete, there may be a deeper problem. Borderline personalities are a pain to deal with in real life and can suck the life out others who come in contact.

Deb

[drmomentum[$]]

I can't imagine why someone would use a ficticious persona online and try to pass it off as real. All I can say is that there are some unstable individuals out there.

On my planet, we have laws against that sort of thing, but the punishments aren't very severe.

Now before you turn a jaundiced eye toward my activities, I must mention that channeling your consciousness into the body of another being for the purposes of communication is NOT the same thing as making up a fake persona and attempting to pass it off as real. Heck, at least I sign my name.

-Khaaaag

[poseidon]

Originally posted by drmomentum
On my planet, we have laws against that sort of thing, but the punishments aren't very severe.

-Khaaaag

My God, JP, you have no idea how much that explains things. Thank you.

[drmomentum[$]]

Originally posted by poseidon
My God, JP, you have no idea how much that explains things. Thank you.

You're welcome. I took you immediately for an understanding person, Jeff. We've been considering you for abduction on and off for a while now.



-Khaaaag

[poseidon]

If space aliens are supposed to be so smart, how come they abduct the Earth's dumbest people?

LOL nice one.

[mtbat]

people are always sending me emails about things like this-ie. people who are sick(children usually) and dying of horrible illnesses-
Now, I hate to Not belive-but I have to view these things with the utmost suspicion-I've seen SO many of these things turn out to be fake-

What that woman did was WRONG and since she did profit from it, it should also be illegal.

I think that one should alway verrify the truth of the matter before sending gifts or $$$$. Call the local papers, news-stations and ASK THEM!

and if you are truly a dying person, or have a dying child-there are other places to spread the message-the media for starters Heck during sweeps week stories like that are a dime a dozen.

If there has been no publicity other than a website, email-then I'm sorry-I just won't belive it until I "see" some sort of proof!

[AuntieEmma[$]]

My feeling is that the online world is very different from the real world.

Sometimes that's a very good thing. As I had written in the racism thread, I think on the internet there's at least the possibility of interacting without the distortion that comes about when we rely on preconceptions about what people are like based on their race, age, appearance, and so on. To the extent that those things are filtered out online, I believe there's a possibility for a purer kind of communication, or at least a chance to communicate without the barriers that might otherwise separate people and keep them from listening to each other.

But there's also another aspect of the internet that's different from real life, and that's that many people treat the online world as one big masquerade party. And I don't know that that's a bad thing. I think it's just a fact. Or at least I treat it as a fact. And so I tend to take what people write online with at least a little grain of salt.

I feel that "knowing" someone online is very different from knowing someone in real life. Online, you may know more about what's in someone's hearts and minds than you would ever find out in IRL, but IRL you would know more about the "facts" of their life.

Anyway, treating it as a masquerade party, I'm usually not particularly shocked if someone is not who they say they are. I mean if on Halloween, someone came up to me and told me they were Dracula, I wouldn't be upset or angry because they were not. I realize that it's not as clear-cut online as that, but I think the principal is similar.

A lot does depend on the situtation, though. The big factor for me is whether people are using their real names or not. If it's a situation where everyone is using their real names, and especially if it's a situation where people are forging relationships that have real world effects -- especially working relationships where real money is changing hands -- then I would expect exactly the same type of honesty that I would offline. But when people are under aliases, then I expect there are at least some who have come wearing costumes and masks -- not because they are evil, but because people have been enjoying masquerade balls for centuries.

P.S. I don't feel that means that my emotions are "wasted" if turns out that someone online is not who they say they are. I cry at the movies -- that's crying about people who don't exist except as fictional creations -- and that's not wasted. It's cathartic. It feels good. I thought Jon Carroll had an interesting point here when he wrote about getting emotionally involved with the lives of celebrities, and we don't really know how much of the "facts" we're being told about their lives are true.