How does one find a job???

kurt_messick · #1 05-14-2002, 05:14 PM

Not just for me, because many could benefit from the insights, I'm sure, but also for me, because I need the insights right now.

What should I be doing to find a job?

mnehr · #2 05-14-2002, 05:25 PM

..well...
I am to the point with my job (boredom and frustration) that I am about to hire a headhunter..
Placement services generally are a good way to go..

**AuntieEmma**[$] · #3 05-14-2002, 05:51 PM

I've been reading "Cool Careers for Dummies" by Marty Nemko, which I'm finding helpful, not so much for the cool-career list, but for the second part of the book, which discusses how to fine-tune what you want and then how to deal with the mechanics of a job search in a much more down-to-earth, realistic way than I've seen in any other book in the career hunting genre. It's also laugh-out-loud funny in parts, which helps. Goes against a lot of the conventional career-hunting wisdom -- for example, he says that if you hate networking, don't spend a lot of time on it -- and he's good at giving suggestions for people who are in tough job-hunting situations. Basically, he advocates being honest and being yourself, which may sound obvious, but I find I've gotten tripped up in the past by trying to project an image that isn't really me, and that doesn't work. Well ... actually, it has worked for me sometimes. But then whenever I've gotten a job by telling people what I thought they wanted to hear, I ended up hating the job, so that's sort of pointless.

mnehr · #4 05-14-2002, 05:58 PM

Quote:

if you hate networking, don't spend a lot of time on it

I love this book already... The last thing I ever wish to do is network.. I guess that is why I never went into a sales carreer..

**Joubert**[$] · #5 05-15-2002, 08:45 AM

One bit of advice I read a long time ago stuck with me. Treat your job search like you do your job.

The author went on to say that if you've got a resume talking about project management and improvements in this and that and program rollouts and communication and so forth, that you should practice the same here.

Pretend that you're doing this job search for a boss.

So, set it up like a project, work the phones, be creative, use letters, networking (sorry, gotta do it -- too many of the best jobs are never posted or are filled with internals). Set a rigid schedule for each day's activity and treat it as an 8 hour job. Yes, you can use the last hour each day to plan out tomorrow's calendar, but spend 8 hours.

I've seen studies indicating that many job-seekers spend less than 20 hours each week total on their search.

I don't know if the cliche of one month out for every ten thousand in compensation still holds, but I always viewed that as an excuse anyway -- likely created by some six figure exec who wanted to rationalize the time off.

Last month I asked a candidate who was overqualified why it took him since October to find a position. He told me that he didn't work very hard on it this winter and he had already knocked his golf handicap down below 5 this spring so he figured it was time.

**AuntieEmma**[$] · #6 05-15-2002, 04:38 PM

I've been zigging and zagging a lot in the kinds of work I've done, and I think that the job search may be different for someone who is making a change than it is for someone who has followed a straight-line career path. For someone with a linear career, who is looking for something similar to their previous jobs except maybe with more responsibility, the main thing to show is that they're capable of doing a good job at the new place, and to prove that by showing they've done similar tasks well in the past. But for someone who's zig-zagging, I think the main thing to show is that they want to do the new job, and I think that has more to do with having a coherent story about how they came to be interested in doing the new job.

Roughly the difference between answering the questions "What can you do for us?" and "Why are you here?"

I mean both questions are important for everyone, but I think the emphasis, in the sense of which question is going to be the most important, differs.

Also a zig-zagging job hunt will almost always take more time than a straight-ahead job hunt, especially when compared to straight-ahead job hunters who have hot skills that are in demand, and I think it helps to take that into account and to have patience.

When I was in my 20s and doing office work, the interviews were almost entirely about concrete things -- where I had worked, what I had done, what specific software I had used. When I was in law school and shortly afterwards, the interviews were much more general. First cut decisions on who to interview were often based on quantitative stuff they could get off of resumes, but the pool of people who would make that first cut was always larger, often hundreds of times larger, than the number of available jobs. So it came down to weird subjective things.

At one interview I had for a research attorney slot at a state court, they had decided that they weren't going to ask any of the usual interview questions because they thought it was a waste of time because all they would get were the usual answers, that everybody would say pretty much the same thing. So instead, they did something that reminded me of "The Dating Game" -- they asked questions like "If you were to work at something besides law, what would it be?" and "What have you done in your life that you're most proud of?" "Most ashamed of?" and so on.

Jobs I got at this stage seemed to be based on really quirky non-work-related things. Sometimes the interviewer just had a "type" that they liked -- you could see that everybody working there fit a certain mold. Sometimes it seemed to really make a difference if I had an outside interest/activity that was unique enough that it stuck in the interviewer's mind and made me one of the people that they happened to be able to remember when it came time for the next cut. Sometimes it seemed to have to do with their identifying with some aspect of my life.

Now I'm in a situation where I'm looking primarily at non-law jobs, and I know the inevitable questions will be "Why did you go to law school?", "Why don't you want to practice law?", and "Why do you want to do this (whatever this may be)"? I'm dreading this, because I'm not even clear in my own mind what the answers are. Maybe the best I can do (besides trying to get clearer myself about what I'm doing) is just to be honest about all that, and hope that it "clicks" with somebody. Probably it's better to play up the zig-zagging rather than trying to play it down -- a zig-zagger trying to appear to be a straight-ahead type, trying to appear to fit into a pre-existing box, will most likely come off as being phony, but if you emphasize what's unique, you at least have a chance of standing out from the crowd. Or so I try and tell myself.

P.S. For a long job hunt, it helps take the pressure off if you can scrounge up some kind of income while you're looking, even if that income is small.

**AuntieEmma**[$] · #7 05-15-2002, 06:46 PM

One other thing I just thought of, that I've had some success with in the past, is to write directly to organizations or companies that you'd like to work for, even if (maybe especially if) they're not advertising any openings. That way, you beat the crush of applications that companies get swamped with when they have widely publicized openings, and your letter/resume is more likely to get read and at least responded to, rather than just quickly skimmed and maybe tossed aside.

Another thing, and this is really more do what I say not what I do (though I think I should be doing this), is to become active in professional organizations or to do some volunteer work that's related to the kind of job you're aiming for. I guess this is networking, but maybe easier for someone who dreads spending the day calling up people like their third cousin's college roommate's ex-husband to ask if they know of any openings.

brian_igo · #8 05-18-2002, 11:39 AM

This might be blasphemous to someone who has invested the years and effort in education that you have, but have you considered doing some kind of factory work for a little while?

God, I never thought I would recommend idiot labor to anyone, but it does have some benefits. It could help relieve some of the financial pressures, it would be a new experience (from what I know about you) and it would be a chance to rebuild some of your confidence.

And if you can fog a mirror and pass a urine test, you can be working tomorrow. If you are interested, call any of the temp services listed in your phone book.

Brian

*emeleel* · #9 05-18-2002, 11:50 AM

I don't think Kurt's health would hold up that, would it, Kurt?

I appreciate the insights here, too, although I'm not looking for a job - hubby is. I need to start riding him about that "treat your job search like a job" thing. Trouble is, when you don't get to bed until around 5 a.m., sleep til noon, eat lunch, then promptly fall asleep on the couch until time to leave at 4 p.m., it makes it rather hard to do that.

But he's got to get something different; this schedule is hurting our family very, very badly in many ways.

The only piece of advice I can offer is "don't be afraid of rejection". Or at least, don't let it show. I think that's a large part of hubby's problem - he's afraid to go after things because he doesn't want to be turned down. I think that's what the problem is, anyway. I wish I could do it for him, but I can't.

pisces · #10 05-18-2002, 07:45 PM

"Treat the job search like a full time job." ?????

I don't know----I always approached my job searches as an opportunity to have fun, meet new people, and socialize, such that if I didn't get the job, I'd still have an interesting experience.

Example: If I was going to a new area for a job interview, I might try a new restaurant in that new area before the interview, which was sort of a fun way for me to explore new territory, people watch....and then relay my stories to the interviewer about my new experience!

Moreover, food has a way of softening even the most hard-nosed of potential employers. Lunch interviews are less stuffy and more fun than being separated by a desk in someone's office. It puts it more in the realm of socializing and employers want to hire people they can click by socializing with. It's not really the case, but employers usually feel if you'd make a great friend/social acquaintance...you'd also make a good employee.

To make interviews and business contacts more a social experience, I always plan to talk about my hobbies. Are you not supposed to list hobbies (Leisure Interests) on a resume? Well too bad, because it makes for great social opportunities. I like much of my business calls and interviews to be 1/3-2/3 non-business because it removes stress and softens potential employers.

Every job I've ever gotten was from an interview and business contact where the business at hand was not necessarily discussed; rather, neutral non-business subjects like the local architecture, sports, shopping, local restaurants, recommending books-sharing favorite authors, movies etc....

Example: A hiring manager declined to hire me, but had recommended a local restaurant that I tried on my own, so of course, I just HAD to call her back and thank her for that restaurant that I enjoyed so much....which led to lunch at that restaurant....which led to me.....NOT really ever being hired with her....but still a great friendship and regular lunches.

Putting some fun into a job search takes the drudgery, stress, and dare-I-say-it...desperation.... out of the job search.

**Joubert**[$] · #11 05-19-2002, 12:01 PM

Pisces, with all due respect, your process may work for you, but flies in the face of every book, article and seminar I've ever seen on the topic.

A couple of thoughts: list hobbies on your resume and I typically laugh. Get too personal right away and you have zero chance of getting the job. And I don't understand what type of positions you've received and from what types of companies when all you've discussed is "neutral non-business subjects...books, sharing favorite authors, movies, etc."

That's not how the real world operates. People don't receive jobs because they talked about what was at the movies last week or that they like John Updike better than Norman Mailer.

**conradd** · #12 05-19-2002, 01:05 PM

I think it might have something to do with the type of position one is applying for. Professional positions call for professional behavior. When I apply for a job, I want my image to come across as a dynamic and motivated professional woman who is focused on the contributions she can make and the value she can add to the organization. If the interviewer brings up something non-job related, fine, but I wouldn't introduce it myself. And, I'd briefly answer and leave it at that.

As a result, I've been offered almost every job I've ever applied for, even the ones I wasn't really qualified for but was able to convince the hiring authorities that I was the best person for the job.

I interviewed but wasn't selected for a very attractive job last spring, the position has still not been filled (with over 900 applications nation-wide) and probably will never be filled since the company has now been acquired in a hostile takeover. Otherwise, my strategy has paid off for me. I've formally applied for 5 career positions in my life and have been hired for 4 of them. That's not a bad record.

But, if I'd treated my job search like a romp through a new adventure, chattering about movies and restaurants, I can guarantee you that my 80% success rate would have been much much lower.

Deb

magenta321 · #13 05-19-2002, 01:24 PM

I've gotten every job and internship I applied for, but I'm young and haven't applied for more than ten things in my life. I think having a professional resume is part one. Part two is the interview. I try to stay likeable but professional. I'll discuss anything my interviewer wants to discuss. If they bring up something technical or professional, I am sure to talk about that. If they bring up something trivial, I'll visit the topic, but try to link it back to something more professional or technical

Shows I'm multi-faceted but business oriented

Or, at least that's what I hope it shows.

I'm not sure what other advice I could give. I do my best to dress to impress. I prep the people who have given me recommendations, in case they do get a call asking about me (I prep them on the particulars that I think that company is looking for). I make sure I'm up on the trade literature, in case someone tries to zing me. I make sure that I've got something interesting going on (I have been asked about hobbies several times) but that is also somewhat professional (such as volenteering, or dabbling in web design). It's good to show you do a lot of things.

My last interview was so informal, and so "we really want to get to know you." It was one of the hardest interviews I'd been on. The reason for the informality was that both of my interviewers knew me as a kid, and I was already hired. The "interview" was more of a formality. But I really wanted to discuss what I did in my old job, and what my role in my new job would be. No such luck. I found it unsettling.

kurt_messick · #14 05-19-2002, 02:00 PM

In twenty years of working, this is the first time I've been unemployed for longer than a week. That is what I am finding disconcerting. I've only had four interviews, and three of them I didn't get for very understandable reasons (one I was sabotaged by someone, which may prompt a lawsuit; one was also interviewing the internal assitant director for director position, and mine was really a pro forma interview because they had to interview others -- I wouldn't have gone had I known; and the third really wasn't the right fit, and I knew that it wouldn't work for me just as well as they did).

The fourth is still open, but I doubt I'll get it, once again for political reasons -- I used to be of the denomination of the church interviewing -- the fact that I am no longer will probably be the deciding factor against me.

I wouldn't mind some kind of temporary or place-holding job, but I can't get hired in this place (too many unemployed people -- we've had MAJOR factory closures in the past few years, with literally 1000s of people still looking) and the few instances where I thought I'd get a temp job have been given to others out from under me (including at the retirement centre where I'm chaplain). My health is an issue and I can't do anything that would jeopardise that, so anything too physical won't be possible.

So, I'm still applying for various things, and still hoping.

The very demoralising part of all of this is to send out hundreds of resumes and get 5 responses; to respond to all 5 responses and get 1 further response in return.

This week I'll pass the 200-jobs-applied-for mark.

You can't wow them in an interview when it is a blind p.o. box that doesn't respond to your resume.

pisces · #15 05-19-2002, 08:25 PM

Quote: "That's not how the real world operates." Joubert

That's exactly how it does operate. I believe personality lands the job every time. I believe personality is even more important than qualifications. I'm not saying it's right. But, that's how it is.

Hiring managers will hire those they feel have the best personality that they can click with regardless of qualifications.

Time and time again, I've seen candidates that have 4.0 degrees from Harvard get turned down for jobs, and not last very long in jobs that they did manage to obtain. Why? They may have been intelligent an overachieving, but they lacked the all-important ingredient: Personality.

Which is why, as we all know, some of the dumbest, underachieving, and incompetent people are landing important jobs because so-and-so hiring manager liked the candidates personality.

It's all about personality and keeping things light, fun, and airy during the pre-employment job search.

Is this the best way for Hiring Managers to hire, according to who they like and who they feel they can become fast friends with? Absolutely not. But poor hiring choices have always been a part of the hiring process.

Still, if the goal is to get hired, no matter what-- Try to get the person doing the hiring to like you and that means fostering some sort of a "click" or connection during an interview or a 3 minute phone call; so that, the managers says, "Gee I might like to be friends with this person if I could." After all, if you were going to spend 8-12 hours with someone, you'd rather spend that time with someone you liked, personally, than just someone who was qualified and professional, but you'd never be friends with.

Quote: "A couple of thoughts: list hobbies on your resume and I typically laugh. Get too personal right away and you have zero chance of getting the job."--Joubert

Not if the hiring manager shares some of those same hobbies. It's not about getting personal. It's about being non-controversial, light and airy. Neutral and non-controversial (even corny) humor cuts the tension. People that we want to spend the most time with are those that have a sense of humor. A hiring manager might want to spend more time with a candidate whose sense of humor they liked, especially after seeing dozens of wooden and overly "professional" candidates all day long.

If a hiring manager just wanted to know about qualifications, they could look at a resume and have no further contact. The purpose of a phone call and/or interview is to reveal the candidate's magnetic and award-winning (sparkling) personality.

**Joubert**[$] · #16 05-19-2002, 09:22 PM

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, Pisces. In my career, I've interviewed hundreds of applicants and managers who report to me have interviewed several thousand more.

My comments are only based on the organizations I've managed over two decades as well as regular attendance at HR forums, reading industry periodicals and such.

Your experiences have clearly been different.

**AuntieEmma**[$] · #17 05-19-2002, 09:33 PM

Quote:

The very demoralising part of all of this is to send out hundreds of resumes and get 5 responses; to respond to all 5 responses and get 1 further response in return.

Been there, done that.

I'm going to do my broken-record number and repeat my recommendation of the "Cool Careers for Dummies" book. Despite it's awful title, it has some good advice for ways to find work that aren't sending in resumes for advertised positions (where the odds are about 500 to 1), on the one hand, or cold-calling all of Aunt Jane's hairdresser's cousins, on the other. There are lots of things between those two extremes. Also, I found the book encouraging, because the author acknowledges that the job-hunting process is a royal drag, which paradoxically made me feel a whole lot better about it. Also, it's funny.

**AuntieEmma**[$] · #18 05-19-2002, 09:39 PM

Regarding the "real world" -- I've probably been on hundreds of job interviews over my lifetime, and they've run the gamut. There's no formula. The only generalizations I would make, and even these have exceptions, is that the more specific the job requirements ("must have X years experience programming in language XYUSJW"), and the fewer people there are who have those requirements, the more the hiring process focuses on job-related experience, and the more general the job requirements (the ubiquitous "must have excellent written and oral communication skills"), and the more people who fit the description, the more the job-hiring process focuses on non-job-related stuff.

**Joubert**[$] · #19 05-19-2002, 09:39 PM

There's absolutely no question that looking for a job is one of the most demoralizing events someone goes through. It's hard to believe all the folks who say don't take it personally when you have no other framework.

But sometimes its a hard choice. I just flew to St. Louis last month to hire someone. I walked out of a day's meetings where my team interviewed 32 people. When we flew home that night, five had a clear shot at the job. We weeded the other four based on phone interviews and matching soft skills with the existing team. Tough call. Would've been happy with any of the other four, any of whom may be on a message board tonight asking, "What didn't I have?"

CurtisEdmonds · #20 05-20-2002, 12:01 AM

1. Resumes don't work. They just don't. You would think that they would -- we are conditioned to think that they would -- but they just don't. Nobody in the world has ever hired a resume to do a job. Employers hire people, not resumes. Remember that. As good as your resume is, it is no substitute for your unique personality and achievements and experiences.

2. Having said that, a lousy resume is a killer. An overly-long or dull or badly-written resume will always spell doom. Please, for the love of God, have someone impartial look at the thing and see if there is anything missing or wrong or blatantly obviously problematic in your resume.

3. Think of resume-writing like taking the SATs. Nobody ever got into a top university with an SAT score alone, but lots of people have been rejected from universities where they've applied because of a low SAT score. Or the resume is like the live guppy you have to eat to get into Sigma Nu. It is another in the annoying, useless tests you have to undertake in life to get what you want.

4. The job search process is not designed to make you feel good about yourself.

5. "When the mortars are falling all around you and things look terrible, think of the good things you've done; the accomplishments, the contributions. Don't ponder your mistakes or your sorrows, that only puts you in a depressed frame of mind. And a depressed state of mind is not equipped to take advantage of that one moment that could arise and save your ass." -- R. Ludlum

6. Figure out who knows where the jobs are. That may be career services officers in the local universities. That may be church organization muckety-mucks. That may be some really sharp person in the local one-stop employment center. (It may be someone in the local vocational rehab center; if your health really is that bad, check it out.)

7. Check out listservs in your area of interest. More and more, people are using listservs and mass e-mails to conduct targete