Haditha

[conradd]

The early criticisms of Murtha that I've read (and that I completely agree with) center on his declaring the troops guilty before the investigation was completed and asserting that he knows "exactly what happened" before all the evidence has been presented. It had nothing to do with his political status as a Democrat or Republican but everything to do with him as a MOC who should know better than shooting off his mouth. Personally, I would have been equally as upset if it had been any other MOC - Dem or Rep - or member of the administration. It was premature and could very well make it harder for the Marines in question to receive a fair trial if the case goes to trial. It's fine to discuss it - it's a very sad news story but to determine guilt or innocense based on preliminary information is not a fair conclusion and Murtha was wrong to make that statement.

The Marines are under investigation. They have not been court martialed yet and no trial has taken place. If the events did take place as has been conjectured, they should be and will be punished. They were trained in rules of war and rules of engagement, even when the other side does not follow those rules, before they were deployed. If they did not follow those rules, they face some very serious consequences.

If there were other circumstances, that needs to be brought out as well. I am reminded of the Ilario Pantano case where the media and various pundits had him convicted before his trial took place. Charges were dropped when autopsy evidence was presented. Here is his letter to the editor in last Sunday's Washington Post:

A year ago I was charged with two counts of premeditated murder and with other war crimes related to my service in Iraq. My wife and mother sat in a Camp Lejeune courtroom for five days while prosecutors painted me as a monster; then autopsy evidence blew their case out of the water, and the Marine Corps dropped all charges against me ["Marine Officer Cleared in Killing of Two Iraqis," news story, May 27, 2005].

So I know something about rushing to judgment, which is why I am so disturbed by the remarks of Rep. John P. Murtha (D-Pa.) regarding the Haditha incident ["Death Toll Rises in Haditha Attack, GOP Leader Says," news story, May 20]. Mr. Murtha said, "Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood."

In the United States, we have a civil and military court system that relies on an investigatory and judicial process to make determinations based on evidence. The system is not served by such grand pronouncements of horror and guilt without the accuser even having read the investigative report.

Mr. Murtha's position is particularly suspect when he is quoted by news services as saying that the strain of deployment "has caused them [the Marines] to crack in situations like this." Not only is he certain of the Marines' guilt but he claims to know the cause, which he conveniently attributes to a policy he opposes.

Members of the U.S. military serving in Iraq need more than Mr. Murtha's pseudo-sympathy. They need leaders to stand with them even in the hardest of times. Let the courts decide if these Marines are guilty. They haven't even been charged with a crime yet, so it is premature to presume their guilt -- unless that presumption is tied to a political motive.

ILARIO PANTANO
Jacksonville, N.C.

[rmthunter]

Deb --

Murtha has always been a very strong advocate for the military and has substantial contacts in the Pentagon. Of course, we shouldn't be condemning people without full evidence, but Murtha is not a grandstander on the order of Bill Frist (of video diagnosis fame). I think one reason his comments had such an impact is simply that he has been so strongly pro-military and he does not have a reputation for shooting his mouth off without basis. If it had been Michael Moore, everyone but the fringe left would have said "ho-hum" and gone back to American Idol.

I'm inclined to give Billmon's suggestion a lot of weight: based, again, on past performance, we have no reason to trust the people who will be vetting the investigation. There is plenty of evidence that the military is like any other bureaucracy -- Rule 1: CYA. It has, unfortunately, become the case that we cannot trust anyone to investigate themselves without public scrutiny.

Murtha's method may not have been the best way, which I will readily grant, but to generate public scrutiny, you've got to get attention. That becomes harder and harder when the press is reluctant to touch anything those in power don't want them to.

There is also, if I'm remembering the timeline correctly, the fact that this evidence was available as far back as February or March. Anyone want to make any guesses as to what we would have heard about it if Murtha had not opened his mouth?

[conradd]

Bob, since the story was published in Time prior to Murtha's pronouncement of guilt, it wasn't a coverup by any stretch. I continue to hold that there is as much or more that is not known about what happened on Nov. 19 as we know. Here's a snippet from a story in the Chicago Tribune:

Marine Capt. James Kimber, now relieved of his command, remembers what happened near Haditha in western Iraq on Nov. 19.

That's not because Kimber was in the town where his Marine colleagues are alleged to have shot and killed 24 Iraqi civilians after a roadside bomb attack that killed one Marine. In fact, he said, "Not a soul from my company was in Haditha on Nov. 19."

But that day, at about the same time, Iraqi insurgents attacked all three Marine companies patrolling in the Haditha area--one of them commanded by Kimber. He said he could hear over his radio the shots being fired during a running gun battle in Haditha. "They weren't just Marine weapons. You can tell from the sound," he said.

and

On the radio, Kimber said, he heard the report from Haditha of the blast from a roadside improvised explosive device, or IED, and the death of one Marine there. He also could hear an unfolding gun battle.

In the battalion briefing afterward, he said, the events of the day in Haditha were reported as an IED ambush, an account that seemed to fit with what he had overheard on the radio.

Most puzzling, Kimber and a Marine colonel said, was the fact that neither of them heard about shootings at Haditha through the Marine rumor mill or in complaints from the Iraqis with whom they had frequent interaction.

"Marines talk," Kimber said. "I'm surprised it didn't get out that way. I'm just hoping that Marines didn't do this."

The Marine colonel, who asked not to be identified, also expressed surprise that he had not heard of questions from other Marines about what happened at Haditha.

and

India Company lost two of its members to a car bomb, and others were injured during the seven months of operations, Kimber said.

Units must intricately document contact with insurgents, he said. If civilians are shot, commanders must compile PowerPoint presentations that detail firing positions and points of attack.

Those reports, he said, never suggested something other than an ambush at Haditha.

I went to a wedding on Saturday for a 3/1 Marine who returned from Haditha in March - he and Shane played Little League together for years and it was awesome to see him in his dress blues, Purple Heart in place, saying his vows. The 3/1 Marines who flew in from all over the U.S. to stand up with their brother decorated the car with "Congratulations Sucker" among other colorful phrases. It's rough for them right now - the entire battalion is feeling the hurt. Change of command and they were scrambling at the last minute to get up here from Camp Pendleton when all leaves were unexpectedly cancelled. So they flew in at 11:30 Friday night and back today except for the best man from Le Jeune. He and Matt were at boot camp together, served 2 tours in Iraq, and are closer than brothers. They bonded early when Matt was ordered by his 331 squad leader to tell his 351 best friend that he hated him. Squad rivalry, but Matt refused to do it and went through a couple hours of "advanced training". Great guys all of them, and they don't deserve the microscope they're under. I sat with a couple of them during the reception and heard some of their stories about Iraq - they were there to protect civilians and they did that, over and over again.


Deb

[drmomentum[$]]

Conflicting opinions of the state of mind of Kilo company in this Guardian story:

The wife of the unnamed staff sergeant claimed there had been a "total breakdown" in the unit's discipline after it was pulled out of Falluja in early 2005.

"There were problems in Kilo company with drugs, alcohol, hazing [violent initiation games], you name it," she said. "I think it's more than possible that these guys were totally tweaked out on speed or something when they shot those civilians in Haditha."

OTOH:

Other observers, however, have come away from time spent with the marines with different impressions. Lucian Read, a photographer who spent five months with Kilo company, said it was generally well led, although sometimes squads had to go on patrol without an officer because there were not enough to go around.


Mr Read told Time magazine that Kilo company was the "most human" of the many units he had accompanied in Iraq. "They were never abusive," he said. "There was a certain amount of antagonism and frustration when people didn't cooperate. But it's not like they had 'kill 'em all' spray-painted on the walls."

-JP

[conradd]

I guess I'd place much more credence in the statement of an officer who listened the fight over his radio than the wife of an unnamed SSGT. The possibility of an entire unit being "tweaked" on speed and/or alcohol in the middle of a fire fight is extremely remote, bordering on a ridiculous allegation. Haditha is remote. Someone from the States would have to send contraband and the Marine who received it (and who would most likely just turn it in - the consequences of being caught with alcohol in Iraq are career ending, let alone drugs) would have to trust that none of the other Marines would report it. That just wouldn't happen. No Marine would be willing to go on patrol with someone under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

I have a bridge I'd like to sell that reporter.

[drmomentum[$]]

That's why I included both quotes. I personally do doubt that the entire unit was "tweaked" and that claim hurts the credibility of her statement, in my view. BTW - I should think drugs would be much easier to keep than alcohol, mainly because of the bulk of alcohol and usual containment vessels.

But then there is the antagonism and frustration mentioned by the photographer, who is generally positive about the company. I'm absolutely no expert, but that sounds like the beginnings of a problem situation.

-JP

[conradd]

FWIW, here's a report by a CNN reporter who was embedded with 3/1 Marines, going on "countless operations" with them:

I know the Marines that were operating in western al Anbar, from Husayba all the way to Haditha. I went on countless operations in 2005 up and down the Euphrates River Valley. I was pinned on rooftops with them in Ubeydi for hours taking incoming fire, and I've seen them not fire a shot back because they did not have positive identification on a target. (Watch a Marine's anguish over deaths -- 2:12)

I saw their horror when they thought that they finally had identified their target, fired a tank round that went through a wall and into a house filled with civilians. They then rushed to help the wounded -- remarkably no one was killed.

I was with them in Husayba as they went house to house in an area where insurgents would booby-trap doors, or lie in wait behind closed doors with an AK-47, basically on suicide missions, just waiting for the Marines to come through and open fire. There were civilians in the city as well, and the Marines were always keenly aware of that fact. How they didn't fire at shadows, not knowing what was waiting in each house, I don't know. But they didn't.

And I was with them in Haditha, a month before the alleged killings last November of some 24 Iraqi civilians.

[Stokes Pennwalt]

conradd said

I have a bridge I'd like to sell that reporter.

The Guardian citing anonymous sources making outlandish allegations that defame members of the US military? I am shocked and awed.

[drmomentum[$]]

conradd said

FWIW, here's a report by a CNN reporter who was embedded with 3/1 Marines, going on "countless operations" with them:

From his report, they don't sound like bad apples to me.

-JP

[conradd]

Report by embedded reporters:

A minister embedded with some of the Marines who are alleged to have killed up to two dozen civilians in Haditha, Iraq, after one of their own died in a roadside explosion says he heard about the dead civilians but saw no distress among Iraqis or Marines in Haditha several weeks after the killings.

"I knew he had been killed and there had been a response. I got the impression insurgents were killed and also some civilians got killed," the Rev. Christopher Price of suburban Atlanta recalled Friday of his conversations with Marines in Haditha in January.

"As it was presented, it seemed a normal part of what happened. It seemed a sort of regrettable but also fairly typical incident. I saw nothing that betrayed any difficulty between the Marines and the people of Haditha."

Price couldn't recall who exactly told him about the killed civilians and said he didn't ask for details.

Price and the Rev. Ben Mathes, a minister from Dawsonville, Ga., and the father of the executive officer of the Marines' Kilo Company Marine in Haditha, spent Jan. 2 to Jan. 23 in Iraq as embedded reporters for Sacramento, Calif.-based K-Love Christian Radio Network. They are both Presbyterian pastors.

"If this thing had been as horrible as it's been made out to be, the people of Haditha would have been up in arms when we were there," said Mathes, who said he first learned of the accusations when they recently became public.

Yes Rev. Mathes is father to the Kilo XO, but still. Ministers are skilled counselors and presumably are truthful. If they saw nothing out of the ordinary, it's another interesting twist to this story. I put Rev. Price's AJC letter to the editor up at MCM today.

[conradd]

The story continues to unravel.

And, the report that a Marine had a cell phone with which to take a picture is hogwash. Marines are not allowed to take cell phones with them since the signal can be triangulated and tracked back to the location. It's a court martial offense.

Deb

[conradd]

erik_kosberg said

"As for all the conservatives who bashed Murtha viciously and relentlessly for having the audacity to tell the truth, I'm sure the apologies will be forthcoming. Any minute now."

As for all the liberals who bashed the Marines viciously and relentlessly before the truth came out, I'm sure the apologies will be forthcoming. Any minute now.

[erik_kosberg]

My Way News - Report to Suggest Marines Shot Iraqis

Evidence collected on the deaths of 24 Iraqis in Haditha supports accusations that U.S. Marines deliberately shot the civilians, including unarmed women and children, a Pentagon official said Wednesday.

[erik_kosberg]

"US Marine accused in Haditha case to sue Murtha"

Um, yeah, good luck with that.

[realtraveller]

erik_kosberg said

"US Marine accused in Haditha case to sue Murtha"

The timing is, of course, entirely coincidental.

When would the timing not have been coincidental? After the statute of limitations expired?

[erik_kosberg]

Maybe on a day when this wasn't also in the news.

BTW, even Fox News sees the writing on the wall: "Nearly Complete Haditha Probe Supports Accusations Against Marines"

[Stokes Pennwalt]

erik_kosberg said

BTW, even Fox News sees the writing on the wall: "Nearly Complete Haditha Probe Supports Accusations Against Marines"

That is from the Associated Press.

Also, it is good to see that the investigation into this incident hasn't faded from the public consciousness and shows signs of progress.

[erik_kosberg]

AP story, Fox News headline. Other sources ran the same story with less emphatic headlines; for example the Boston Globe used Haditha report could implicate Marines.

[erik_kosberg]

"Suit Against Murtha Faces Steep Legal Hurdle"

[conradd]

The same Marine threatened to sue Minnesota Congressman, John Kline.He apologized.

A U.S. lawmaker apologized on Tuesday to U.S. Marines under investigation in the deaths of two dozen Iraqi civilians in Haditha in a statement his office said spared him from a libel lawsuit.

Minnesota Republican Rep. John Kline, a retired Marine Corps colonel, issued a three-paragraph statement under a deal with lawyers for Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich, one of the Marines under investigation.