So many reasons I hate Taxachusetts

[phoenixx]

Here's another one: FOXNews.com - Massachusetts Proposal Would Outlaw Spanking - Politics | Republican Party | Democratic Party | Political Spectrum

[jgibson2[$]]

Spanking isn't often an effective means of discipline, but there are times when one swat on the behind can emphasize your point.

My youngest (5 or 6 at the time) had poked me repeatedly for a half-hour during a morning Mass. I repeatedly removed and held his hands, asked him not to do it, etc. To no avail. He poked me ONE more time on the way out the door and I turned around and swatted him on the backside. He was humiliated and shrieked that everyone had seen me spank him - to which I replied "and they all saw you poking me."

[drmomentum[$]]

Democratic state Rep. Jay Kaufman introduced the measure on behalf of the nurse, but isn't taking a position on it.

As the resident Bay Stater, I guess I have to step up. Respectfully, of course.

Considering that the guy who submitted it won't even declare support for it, it's a little premature to tar the state with this baby. At least wait until it passes the legislature.

On the Taxachusetts front, the economically conservative Economist magazine dispelled that myth back in 2004. From the July 29, 2004 edition of The Economist:

"And thanks to a referendum on property taxes in 1980, state and local taxation is well below the national average. (Massachusetts, which used to be second in terms of state and local taxes as a percentage of income, has now dropped to 36th). Mr Kerry does not represent a high-tax, one-party state."

State and local taxes are below the national average. And yet we're also lower than the national average on the percentage of the state's tax burden that corporations shoulder.

In addition to that, many other states benefit from the largess of the Bay State in paying federal taxes. For every dollar we send to Washington we only ask for about 75 cents in return. Of course, federal tax rates are the same from state to state, but Bay Staters contribute more to the pool than we consume.

It's time to retire the inaccurate "Taxachusetts." The only thing it accomplishes is to perpetuate a myth that hurts the state.

NPR : Slate's Chatterbox: The Myth of 'Taxachusetts'



-JP

[pippadaisy[$]]

To further support JP's claim, NY is WAY above Massachusetts (#2 vs. #32) in tax rates per capita:

CNNMoney.com: Taxes by state 2005, by rate

[magenta321]

Even if the proposal is a stupid idea, and won't make it any further than the air waves, it's still a positive thing, in my mind.

Let's face it, a lot of parents replace a lack of effective disipline with spanking. They were probably spanked as children, and figure "I turned out ok" so they spank their children too. Generally speaking, it's lazy parenting, and ineffective, especially in the long term.

Maybe it will get this type of parent's attention that "gee, it's not acceptable to spank your kids" and there will be less of it. Especially if the media would run some stories on alternative methods of parenting. Maybe more effective would be if hospitals, religious programs, etc. would feature classes along these lines.

If it gets people talking about how better to raise children, it's a good thing in my opinion, even if you "know" it won't turn into a law.

BTW, they are running this story on my local news with a picture of a man with a belt. Isn't that already considered child abuse? If it's not, why?

[rmthunter]

, Pippa, beware -- that list is based on averages. Illinois ranks as no. 30, but tell that to anyone who lives in Chicago, with one of the two or three highest sales taxes in the country.

As for spanking - I used to give the cat a swat from time to time when he/she/they were out of control. For any discipline to do any good, first you have to get their attention. Children are almost as good as cats at ignoring you while you're talking.

[pippadaisy[$]]

Um, yeah.

Like Judy said, there are some kids that sometimes need a swat. I was totally anti-spanking t all until I had kids. But there are times, like with the child who runs in the road or runs away in a crowd, where a time-out and loss of privileges isn't going to cut it.

Schools can't punish or fail kids, parents can't and don't punish kids.. gee, and we wonder why we have kids shooting up the schools?

Outlawing spanking isn't going to prevent child abuse. And if someone can't tell the difference between the two to begin with, no law is going to stop them.

[pippadaisy[$]]

The list is based on averages, and accounts for state and local income tax as well as the sales tax. I have NO clue what sales tax rates are in the City, but up here it's 8.25% total.

Here are state averages for sales tax rates:

theSTC - State Sales Tax Rates

Chicago, for the most part, is 9%, unless you look at hotels and soda. Our hotel rates are way higher than 8.25%. NYC (thank you Wikipedia) is 8.375%, while Utica is 9%.

Sales taxes in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So yeah... still higher here.

[rmthunter]

Actually, sales tax in Chicago is 8.75%, soda is 11% plus (although groceries and prescriptions drugs are still at 2%). I don't know what hotels are, but they're hefty, I'm sure -- city derives huge income from tourism/conventions, etc.

[emeleel]

I think folks could get parents talking about alternative child discipline without attempting to legislate parenting.

And while AL has pretty decent income tax levels, where I lived until a few weeks ago, the sales tax was 10%. On *everything* that was outright purchased except prescriptions. All food, everything. Even rentals and leases had some sales tax you had to pay, but not at the 10% rate.

Now I'm "only" paying 8%, whoopee.

[rmthunter]

One thought occurs to me on rereading that article -- this is obviously a bill introduced at the behest of a constituent, who may or may not perceive a real problem. The sponsor seems to be lukewarm at best, and my guess is that it's going to die a well-deserved death in committee, after everyone yawns politely.

[mjfrombuffalo[$]]

Sales taxes in NYC are lower than Nassau County (8 3/8 vs. 8 5/8%), but when you factor in the NYC $1.50 per pack cigarette sales tax X number of packs sold in NYC, it may skew the data a tad.

[hadassahchana[$]]

1. You guys crack me up - what a mixed thread!

2. I always read this as "Texachusetts", and thought there was something very cool about Massachusetts. Who knew?


3. I'd like to politely disagree about hitting kids to get their attention. Hitting a child just to get their attention works about as well as doing that to an adult, the difference being that an adult can take a swing back at you without getting into more trouble.


I've given each Horseman except #3 one smack on the tush, and all three times it was for running out into the road. Because they never got spanked or smacked, they remember those times really well. OTOH, they pay attention when I say "If X, then Y", because they know I will keep my promise and that I never threaten- I tell them what the consequences will be and then carry through. That really gets a child's attention, if the parent is always consistant. Sorry for ranting.

[mjfrombuffalo[$]]

Hey, we've only been talking sales taxes here so far. If you factor in income taxes, that's different... but NYC again would skew NYS. For example, did you know that

NYS senator for NYC said

New York State is particularly dependent on personal income tax revenue generated by the high-paying financial sector, which helps explain the recent years where record bonuses on Wall Street translated into revenue for the state well above projections.

New York State also depends on the sales and real-estate tax revenue of the Wall Street-ers taking their end-of-year bonuses to buy luxury cars and homes. Scary.

[pippadaisy[$]]

There is that extra added mess for the boroughs that I always cringe over when doing my taxes. Then again, our County Executive has a plan that would take the county's portion of the sales tax? Currently 4.5%? And not give any to the schools.

I see a property tax increase heading my way.

[rmthunter]

hadassahchana said

3. I'd like to politely disagree about hitting kids to get their attention. Hitting a child just to get their attention works about as well as doing that to an adult, the difference being that an adult can take a swing back at you without getting into more trouble.

Sorry -- should have made it clear that the swat on the butt was not a routine. It was situation specific, and did get a strong reaction because it didn't happen often (read "almost never"). You're right -- if it's the standard, it rapidly loses its impact.

[drmomentum[$]]

I have to LOL at the swat on the butt to get attention.

My parents didn't hit me often, but I can tell you now it was a fast track to defiance. Hitting me was the fastest way to get me to conclude you were in the wrong.

The only way that sort of behavior modification would have worked on me would have been if I actually believed my life was in danger. And that would clearly have been child abuse.

Which raises an interesting question: perhaps everyone just has their threshold. On one side of the threshold spanking is ineffective. On the other side it is effective but amounts to either physical or psychological abuse.

-JP

[magenta321]

Teachers watch classrooms full of 20-30 kids and they keep control without ever spanking, hitting, or belting. Good teachers can even watch a classroom full of 20-30 kids and rarely have to use their voices. Somehow, we've learned not to let teachers hit students, and somehow, teachers have learned to hold student's attention and keep them out of danger without resorting to force.

There was a time where being hit at school was acceptable. Now it's criminal. I don't think it's wrong to expect parents to have to make this same evolution.

[pippadaisy[$]]

Um, yeah, Margaret. When is the last time you were in a school?

It sure isn't like the old days. I had friends who taught in elementary schools who were attacked by students... in second grade. Teachers also have children IN A SCHOOL. Not outside. Not near traffic.

I'm sorry, but while I respect the opinions of other parents, I certainly don't appreciate the government, or people who don't have children, telling me how I should or should not parent.

[magenta321]

The last time I was in a classroom full of kids was 2001. I'm still sure they times haven't changed so much that it's now acceptable for teachers to spank their students.

I'm sorry that you don't value my opinion. But I still am entitled to hold them and share them just as much as you are, kids or no kids.

[magenta321]