Eps

[theworm[$]]

OK. I've written a few reviews lately, so I guess in my own small way I'm back at Epinions, and like before I don't get involved in the politics and clicks. Generally, I write when I like a product enough to want to write (or if Amy guilts me into it) and I read when I'm really interested in the topic. Since I wrote a few reviews, and I got some nice ratings and comments, I decided to go back and read some of the nice people who rated me. True to myself, I pick one of their review on a topic of interest - I just CAN'T read for the sake of reading reviews. There is usually something there that I like, so I read, I rate, and sometimes I leave comments.
So now I'm reminded about what bugs me about Eps. I read some really mediocre reviews. They're helpful. They tell me something about the product - Like I like it a lot, I hate it - and that is "helpful info". They are sometimes poorly written with plenty of grammar and spelling errors (Yes, I am the queen of spelling mistakes and typos, and some of my eps reviews have spelling mistakes and typos, but I do spell check them - unlike my posts here - and I usually notice a spelling mistake in the first sentence). Then I go down, and see that the review has 57 ratings - all Very Helpful and 16 of those are from Advisors and Leads.
Huh?
If all you do is say - I needed it, I bought it, it's good - well, that may be helpful, but it ain't very helpful, so I'm stuck feeling like Hey I have to give this a VH or I'm a bitch, or I simply can't rate this so I'll leave, or - most often - I rate it Helpful and feel so so guilty that I go back and read other of their VH rated reviews hoping that I can be true to my conscious and leave a VH and so often I can't.
So - why am I writing this? I don't know. What do you all do when you read an adequate review that is helpful and has all VH ratings. I guess what I should learn from this is that I should post reviews when I want to and not worry about what the ratings are because they often don't mean as much as they should.
Why do I feel guilty for giving the only "helpful" rating to a review?
Ugh! There must be something wrong with me that I even care, but it bothers me when in certain categories advisors just give VHs for really mediocre or simply adequate reviews.
It also bothers me in other categories where advisors sometimes downrate new writers for what I think are great reviews.
Fortunately, there are enough advisors and leads at Eps who I really respect who rate fairly to their own standards and aren't afraid to rate above or below the going rating.
Sometimes I feel its like the school systems who sadly allow illiterates to graduate so as not to stir the pot.

[hadassahchana[$]]

I guess I don't worry about it any more, I just rate according to whether or not a review is helpful to me. If someone can't spell or write a coherent sentence and cannot give clear examples of why the product is good or bad, then the reviewer hasn't any credibility with me, so the review isn't helpful, or at least isn't Very Helpful.

On the other hand, maybe you woulnd't want the kind of emails I routinely get from people who feel the need to 'explain' about their brilliance and my parentage...



Cindy

[theworm[$]]

Actually, Cindy - you are one of the Advisors I had in mind when I said what I did. You're very fair.
No, I wouldn't want the stupid e-mails that you get!!! Heaven's no!
Hell, we all take this so seriously. People actually copyright their product reviews???

I just love seeing my ratings come in, vh and h mostly, and now I fear I'll start getting those mean annonymous NOT HELPFULS because I dared to rate H when everyone else thinks a poorly written blurb is very helpful.

[Joubert[$]]

Well, the copyright exists once it's written, but yes, I've posted notices there too. That's mostly so other sites don't feel as though they can copy and paste my work and cut into any potential IS.

I think that rating guidelines have evolved on each area of the site. I don't mean published guidelines, but the reality is that Travel reviews are rated differently than Business and Tech which are rated differently than Online Services (note: I'm just tossing three random areas out there, not picking on specific groups of people)

What seems to be acceptable in one category is deadly in another. And then there are the "courtesy VHs", the "I'll read yours, you read mine" reviews that are almost always rated as VH.

I think, like student grades, there is inflation going on where a H rating is really a VH and a VH is expected. We see the same thing in schools that have to create extra GPA points by taking AP classes so they can create a better than 4.0 average. Rather than adjust the middle, the local school district (and many others, I'm sure) simply raised the top level.

[theworm[$]]

Are those real copyrights though? I assumed that they were fake?
You actually send a copy in to the copyright office and pay a fee per review?
Hhm. I can see that for fiction, poetry, essays - even book and movie reviews - but I guess I'm suprised that someone would copyright a review for Ponds Cold Cream (just pulled that out of my head - don't know if anyone has).
I would like to see ratings more standardized. If it's not a VH in books, why is it great in makeup (again - pulled those out of nowhere).
If it were more standardized, perhaps people would write more across the categories.

[AuntieEmma[$]]

What do you all do when you read an adequate review that is helpful and has all VH ratings.

I wouldn't rate it at all in that situation.

Actually, these days, I don't read at Epinions very often. Mostly when after seeing a movie or reading a book, and I'm curious about what other people thought -- first, in the case of a movie, I'll go to IMDB and read some reviews from my favorite reviewers or publications on the "external reviews" list, then I'll google "Epinions [movie name]" and read maybe one or two from there, then I'll skim through some of Amazon's reviews. I do like to use Epinions when I'm shopping for products that I don't know much about, but I don't shop for big-ticket items that often, and sometimes Epinions doesn't have the reviews anyway. Anyway, for all that type of reading I don't rate, and I usually don't even sign in.

My feeling is this -- the ratings don't really matter to the users of the site, but they've become very important to the egos of the contributors. And I just got tired of that game. Oddly enough, I think that if I had never found EA (or any other board where Epinions writers congregated and discussed the site), I might just have rated the way I saw fit (which would probably be an "H" for 99% of the stuff on the site, because I think the vast majority of stuff on Epinions IS helpful, no more and no less). It may only be because I've read so many (off-site) discussions of people getting totally worked up about ratings they thought were undeserved, that I've shied away from rating as much as I have. It's like ignorance is bliss -- if I hadn't known that people cared so much about their ratings, if I hadn't known that people were insulted by getting an "H," I think I would have rated more.

Imagine that you were reviewing books, and then found a board where book authors were gnashing their teeth when they got reviews that said their books were "good," as opposed to "incredible" or "the best thing I've read this year"; if the authors wrote you emails telling you it took years to write their books and they really wish you would reconsider rewriting your review and giving them stronger praise; if some of the loonier authors organized group actions where they would all descend on your reviews and write nasty things in the comments section -- it would be enough to put you off book reviewing forever, right?

(Actually, come to think of it, that may not be quite as far-fetched as it sounds. The letters column in the Sunday New York Times Book Review section lately has been filled with whiney authors complaining about their reviews, many more than in the past. I hope this isn't a trend.)

As for the ego thing -- One of the lefty sites I read, dailykos, put in a rating system for comments about a year ago. There are five ratings available -- a "4" for excellent, a "3" for good, a "2" for marginal, and a "1" for troll. There is also a "0" for super-troll, but the only people who can give "0"s are people who are "trusted users." The formula for becoming a "trusted user" is secret. (You can see where this is going, right?) It has to do with how often you've commented recently and how well your comments were rated, but the numer of comments required, the time period, and the ratings required are all secret, to prevent gaming of the system.

The purpose of putting in this rating system was to get rid of trolls, and for that it has worked very well. Any post with more than two ratings and an average rating below 1 is blocked from view. That keeps the site free of troll-crap, and discourages trolls from posting in the first place.

The only "privileges" that "trusted users" get are that they have the ability to give "0" ratings, and they get to see, if they want, the posts that have been blocked from view, and if they feel the posts shouldn't have been blocked, they can give them a higher rate in an effort to bring the average up enough so that the post will become visible again. That's it. And yet, predictably, for some people the perceived (imagined?) STATUS of being a trusted user has become really important, and they get upset when they lose it (it comes and goes depending on the volume of recent posts).

The 4-3-2-1 ratings have also been subject to grade inflation, and some people have gotten offended and complain and demand explanations if someone gives them a "3." Remember that "3" was originally defined as "good." This situation is SO analogous to people at Epinions complaining about "H" ratings that I felt I was in real deja vu territory. Anyway, the upshot is that the "3" rating has become useless -- why try and complement someone by giving them a "3" (in order to say you thought what they wrote was good) if there's a chance they might take offense by your doing so? So now it's either "4" or nothing.

I guess I just try and avoid most rating systems these days. If I were a teacher getting paid to grade papers (or a contest judge or anything like that), I would do a conscientious job and take whatever knocks came from doing so. But for this online stuff where the competition for ratings, purely for bragging rights, has totally eclipsed the original reasons the ratings systems were instituted in the first place? I don't think so.

[Joubert[$]]

theworm said

Are those real copyrights though? I assumed that they were fake?
You actually send a copy in to the copyright office and pay a fee per review?

I'm sure that one of the attorneys or writers will step in any minute, but my understanding is that copyright exists when the work is created. Filing the paperwork with the government makes proving a claim that much easier, I suppose, and would be standard for commercial works, but the copyright notice can be used without filing that paperwork.

I think.

[nc10]

theworm said

.............
So - why am I writing this? I don't know. What do you all do when you read an adequate review that is helpful and has all VH ratings. I guess what I should learn from this is that I should post reviews when I want to and not worry about what the ratings are because they often don't mean as much as they should.
Why do I feel guilty for giving the only "helpful" rating to a review?..........

Well don't feel guilty, but if you were going to, only feel guilty if you don't give reviews that deserve an H or less its deserved rating.

I think ratings are supposed to accomplish:

Ranking reviews and showing the best to shoppers first.
Determine which reviews earn income share
Determine which reviewers should get consideration for TR consideration...

Rating incorrectly leads to bad rankings, income share payout "inequalities", and possible TR hats, though I think CL recommendations can offset any errors on the that account.

I think I agree with what you are saying, some established reviewers often get the benefit of the doubt when deciding between H and VH. How much does that effect review ranking, income share calc's, etc? Overall I don't think its too big of a problem in terms of how it effects shoppers. Still, there are certainly specific cases that lots of members find frustrating. And I know a few good reviews by new reviewers get hidden by this effect.

But, I think the system does pretty well at listing most of the best reviews first to shoppers. Hopefully thats enough to convince shoppers to stick around and dig through the lower ranked reviews and get the good information there also.

What % of reviews do you think deserve and should get VH ratings? The numbers have been pretty constant in the areas I track (computers), but I was wondering what people think the percentages are/should be.

[mjfrombuffalo[$]]

I have a few people on my alert list and if my morning Eps email shows someone wrote something that interests me, I'll go read it. If I think it's not a VH review, I don't rate it.

[AuntieEmma[$]]

I guess my short answer is that rating causes me so much anxiety that I just don't want to deal with it. (Maybe if I saw a good reason for rating, I could cling to that and go ahead and do it despite the anxiety, but I don't see the reason, so that's no help.)

[sleeper54]

nc10 said

--snip--

What % of reviews do you think deserve and should get VH ratings? The numbers have been pretty constant in the areas I track (computers), but I was wondering what people think the percentages are/should be.

Last 200 in books, quick and dirty count:

166 VH
..22 H
..11 SH
....1 NH


Hmmm, 83% VH 11% H

I would have guessed 80-15-5 in 'books' . . .close.


Grade inflation for sure.



...tom...
.

[Redlass]

Gee, and I'd always heard we book raters were hard nosers.

Honestly, I don't think it is possible for a review by itself to be a VH or H or SH or NH review. Just as the review is an expression of an opinion about a product or service, so the rating is an opinion about the effectiveness of that expression. Opinions are, by definition, personal.

So it really is irrelevant how everyone else rated a review to whether or not *I* found it helpful or very helpful or any other rating.

And in some categories, I think there will be a difference in rating because there is a difference in the extent of information you need for a review to be helpful. The information I need to decide whether or not to buy a book is going to rely an awful lot on whether that book was able to evoke something from the reader. So I want a review to tell me how successful the book was in arousing the interest, curiosity, or emotion of the reader. I could care less what the plot is--I'm willing to buy books with lots of different plots and rarely is the decision made solely on the plot alone. And yet, if it is the plot that gets a reader going, then that is what I want to hear about.

It's why I don't think it is possible to create a template or formula for a book review and have it be effective. Each book has the potential to stir a different sort of passion and the review has to reflect that.

Er, now I'm talking more about review writing than rating, but the two are intertwined. I might rate a review VH even though it is missing what some people would find key data because I got out of the review what I needed to make a decision. Someone else may not care about how evocative a book is, therefore they're not going to rate something VH if that is all the information it provides.

Frankly, I like Epinions because rating is so personal. My rating of a review is no more wrong that my rating of a book or product when I write a review. It is an expression of my opinion which others may find useful or not.

[sleeper54]

Redlass said

Gee, and I'd always heard we book raters were hard nosers.

--snip--

Obviously what would be more valuable is the breakdown of individual rates within each of those overall rates. There you might find that evidence of 'hard-nosed books raters' . . ..

Not that I would want to do that . . ..



...tom...
.

[Psychovant]

theworm said

What do you all do when you read an adequate review that is helpful and has all VH ratings. I guess what I should learn from this is that I should post reviews when I want to and not worry about what the ratings are because they often don't mean as much as they should.

To be honest this happens to me all the time in my own category. It seems to garner my share of the "you are such a blankety-blank everyone else rated me higher emails as well." I just tell them that if they wrote it specifically to get a VH from me they will have to put a little more effort into it.

You know Wormie, most of my reviews have a majority of VH rates on them (even from before the whole CL deal) and when I look back over the older ones I think to myself, "why the hell would anyone have rated that anything more than helpful?" Because people's expectations are all different and some people at the site rate to be liked or even noticed. When I write in different categories the only ratings I pay attention to (and comments (suggestive criticism) as well) are those from the people I respect in the category. Cindy and Grace are a perfect example for me in books - they are both fair and Grace has given me a lot of food for thought with how much she expects of a review in that specific category.

Why do I feel guilty for giving the only "helpful" rating to a review?

Heh, I grew out of that a long time ago. I used to even worry that I was going to get nasty emails or comments or even... revenge raters... gasp. I won't go as far as to emulate our commander in chief with a "bring it on" but I will say that those fears have long passed and if someone is affected enough by my rating and disagrees I am so open for intelligent discussion it isn't funny.

So hey, I'm going to try my hand in the pet category here soon, wish me luck. Pet shower thingy, who'd a thunk it?

[theworm[$]]

Pet shower thingy??? Make sure to post here in JUST IN. I must read that!!!

I don't think I'm a hard rater. I do think that I'm fair - lenient if anything, so when I see 30 VHs and 16 of those are from advisors and I think "H" it makes me wonder if it's me. I'm not going to give a VH if I don't think it deserves it, but heck..... it makes me wonder.

Some of my older reviews got VHs then and would probably get H or even SH now. I find that occassionally someone will rate my very early reviews and rate me lower and that cool. Overall the standards have gone up. I've gotten VHs that have shocked me.

Well, I think I'll just continue to post when the mood strikes and continue to read and rate when I feel like it and leave it at that.

[Helen_B[$]]

My understanding of copyright, is that something written, with an identified author, is automatically considered the intellectual property of that author. Years ago, Hadassahchana and I co-authored some prenatal education handouts, and simply put c., date, and our names at the bottom of each handout. I assume it worked, because I never saw anyone else circulating our sheets.