Red Dye #40 and other dyes

[lynnzop[$]]

I'm doing some reading on the effect of red dye #40 (in particular) and other dyes on behaviour. (Adult AND child) Some questions I've got after some preliminary reading.

1.) What success have you had in eliminating or reducing dyes from your food?

2.) Is there a comprehensive list of foods that contain (red #40 in particular) dyes that are potential behaviour modifying?

3.) Is it all a bunch of crap?

4.) If it's not, is it easiest to just experiment and see what happens? I can read labels, but I'm not sure that they always show the dyes. For example, I just looked at a bottle of Heinz ketchup. Red as can be, but no red dye listed in the ingredients. Can I be sure there's no red dye (or other dyes) if they are not listed on the ingredient label?

Lynn

[jgibson2[$]]

Unless I'm seriously mistaken, dyes MUST be listed in the ingredient list - if only as "and natural and artificial ......)

Red dye #40, among others, has enough of a history that the FDA requires it to be listed among the ingredients of food and cosmetic products.

It's pervasive, though. I've been trying to eliminate it from my shopping since my nephew first alleged that his total behavioral reversal was at least partly due to eliminating it from his diet.

Bottom line, you've got to read labels. No list could be comprehensive and if you could get a comprehensive list, the companies might immediately change their ingredients.

[cristina1]

I never considered red dye to be the cause of bad behavior in my kids, but I do try to keep the amount they eat to a minimum. I think Zachary is allergic because if he has too much of it, he will have an accident in his pants. I have heard of kids who literally bounce off the walls because of it, and Zack is a high strung kid, but I haven't noticed any behavior changes from limiting the amount he eats. It did stop the messes in his pants, though.

It seems to be in just about everything from cereals to snacks. I know that the strawberry fruit and cereal bars have it, gummies have it, fruit roll-ups just for a few examples. I dont think ketchup contains dye - isnt it red from the tomato paste it is made from? I always thought so anyway. But look at cereals and the like - it is hard to find dye free foods at all. (I think it is even in Doritos!)

[jgibson2[$]]

Most commercial BBQ sauces have red #40 in them, much to my son's chagrin. Ketchup doesn't, though. I guess it has lots more tomatoes.

I've finally quit hearing "pass me that good stuff with the dye in it."

[emeleel]

1.) What success have you had in eliminating or reducing dyes from your food?

Sean would be a total monster (says the loving Mom ) if he got more red dye than he gets. I havent' totally eradicated it, but I do watch for it and limit it.

2.) Is there a comprehensive list of foods that contain (red #40 in particular) dyes that are potential behaviour modifying?

Sure - if you're willing to pony up and pay Feingold for the list.

3.) Is it all a bunch of crap?

As with soooo many other things, it's not a be-all, end-all answer. Not every child who has behavioural problems will respond to a dietary change, whether it's dyes or other factors like dairy, wheat, gluten, etc. But for those who are affected by it, it is a real problem. I know too many people through the Red Dye YahooGroup that have seen positive benefits from removing red and/or other dyes from their children's diets. There's a least a couple whose children were actually labeled as autistic as toddlers, who are now perfectly fine and healthy and normal as long as they maintain a dye-free diet.

4.) If it's not, is it easiest to just experiment and see what happens? I can read labels, but I'm not sure that they always show the dyes. For example, I just looked at a bottle of Heinz ketchup. Red as can be, but no red dye listed in the ingredients. Can I be sure there's no red dye (or other dyes) if they are not listed on the ingredient label?

First you would want to do a total elimination of the red dyes for at least two weeks, maybe more. Then introduce a small amount and see what happens. Judy is right, if Red Dye is present, it *must* be listed as such. The biggest problems come when eating out because there aren't any labels to check. And it can hide in some of the strangest things - Pillsbury sweet rolls, black frosting, etc. You can even run into it if you get just plain water at a restaurant - because the water taps on the soda machines where they usually get customer water is almost always connected in with the orange soda tap.

Resources:

http://www.feingold.org
http://www.red40.org
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NoRedDye/

[hymie[$]]

I always assume that it's a bunch of doodoo, by what I like to refer to as the "eat right to live forever" crowd. And even if there is an effect, the only way to tell for sure is with a double-blind study. Trying to monitor yourself for changes is hopeless - you'll never know if you're observing a real effect or something spurious arising from the simple fact that you're trying to be aware of your behavior.

[cristina1]

jgibson2 said

Most commercial BBQ sauces have red #40 in them, much to my son's chagrin. Ketchup doesn't, though. I guess it has lots more tomatoes.

I've finally quit hearing "pass me that good stuff with the dye in it."

Funny - I never even thought about BBQ sauce. We don't use it much though, so that is probably why.

[drmomentum[$]]

If you want to experiment, you can probably buy food coloring and feed it straight to the subject.

My friends and I used ot make fake movie blood all the time with high concentraitons of red dyes (I'm assuming #3 and #40). We swallowed much of it (it was in Karo syrup). I don't remember any episodes following high exposure ot dye.

Adjusting for weight, I've volunteered for this experiment. I just swallowed the contents of a small bottle of red food coloring (#3 and #40). I'll let you know if I feel funny later. My tongue is red and the stuff was slightly bitter.

My daughter is saying "What did you eat?"

-JP

[drmomentum[$]]

hymie said

you'll never know if you're observing a real effect or something spurious arising from the simple fact that you're trying to be aware of your behavior.

I'm definitely feeling at least a little spurrious.

-JP

[jgibson2[$]]

I know that red dye #40 with or without #3 isn't going to have much of a negative effect on most people. If it did, someone would have lobbied to get it off the market by now.

With my oldest son (and apparently with my nephew as well), it made a HUGE difference when he was younger. I'm trying to eliminate it again to see if he becomes less edgy without it. It may or may not help. He's getting cranky because I won't buy some of his favorite foods now.

When he was 4, I sent him to special ed pre-school. He rode the bus to school. On certain days, his behavior on the bus home was so awful that the bus driver threatened to suspend him from the bus. I convinced her to try a little observation. We read his notebook together as she dropped him off each afternoon. On bad days, he'd had either a food or beverage with red dye in it. On the other days, he had not.

I'd been trying to get the teacher to stop feeding him that crap for months. When I asked, she said: "Several of the other parents have said the same thing."

When the schoolbus driver presented her with the evidence, she changed her feeding habits. His in school and bus behavior improved markedly.

When he was a little older, I let him spend a week with my mom. When I arrived for the return trip, I observed that he was bouncing off the walls more than he usually did at home -- and wrote it off to being in an unfamiliar environment. The next morning when he got up, he asked me for the cereal grandma had been feeding him for breakfast (one with LOTS of dyes in it -- one I never let in my front door). I declined and fed him Cheerios instead. My mom had gone out for a while that morning. When she arrived home, she commented that he was much better behaved when his mom was around. Not until I restricted his diet, but yes, he was better behaved.

It might be an allergy in his case -- he has lots of allergies. It may be that he's sensitive to it and most people aren't. It may just be that he's strung higher than most people to begin with. I don't know. I just know that in HIS case; but not either of his brothers, as far as I can tell; it makes a difference both in his mood and in his behavior.

[lynnzop[$]]

drmomentum said

Adjusting for weight, I've volunteered for this experiment. I just swallowed the contents of a small bottle of red food coloring (#3 and #40). I'll let you know if I feel funny later. My tongue is red and the stuff was slightly bitter.

My daughter is saying "What did you eat?"

-JP

Oh JP, you crack me up. I think you'd feel funny even if you ate nothing at all.

cristina1 said

It seems to be in just about everything from cereals to snacks. I know that the strawberry fruit and cereal bars have it, gummies have it, fruit roll-ups just for a few examples.

I saw that (had already visited a couple of the sites that Melanie had listed even before I posted here. One of them (I think it was the red40.org) listed a some foods by category. The biggest category I saw (it was not organized to be user-friendly, in my eyes) was in the candy, snacks, and sweetened cereals. I know there are a lot of people who pooh-pooh sugar and it's effect on behaviour, but there seems to be a correlation.

And Feingold is outrageously expensive. I started looking at their stuff about a year ago and decided to try to find alternative methods of research.

So JP, how are you feeling now?

Lynn

[drmomentum[$]]

This is not a scientific experiment, but so far I feel fine.

"Allergy" refers to an immunological reaction to a substance. Immune system responses would not be hyperactivity, but rather sneezing, itching, rash, hives, respiratory distress or low blood pressure.

With foods, these observations are tough to make. Assuming there is an effect, the red dye may be a red herring. Who knows if there is something that generally accompanies red dye in foods that people find causes some effect? These sorts of observations really aren't all that reliable without some sort of study.

Hmmm. I'm starting to feel kinda itchy. But is it suggestive after reading all this stuff about allergies, or is it the dye? And what color [CONTENT EDITED OUT]?

-JP (Off to look for some Benadryl)

[drmomentum[$]]

BTW - my daughter doesn't believe I ate the dye, even though I showed her my tongue.

That stuff should be clearly labelled.

WARNING: YOUR TONGUE WILL TURN RED AND YOUR DAUGHTER WILL BE INCREDULOUS

-JP

[cristina1]

JP, I am laughing so hard I think my kids are probably going to hear me and wake up. Too funny!

The biggest category I saw (it was not organized to be user-friendly, in my eyes) was in the candy, snacks, and sweetened cereals. I know there are a lot of people who pooh-pooh sugar and it's effect on behaviour, but there seems to be a correlation.

Yep, and Zachary can't have chocolate or things heavy on the dyes. Imagine what feeding this kid snacks is like. But he eats a lot of things like pretzels, graham crackers, and raisins and he loves fruit, so it is healthier for him. We also give him the apple fruit and cereal bars, and things like that. Once in awhile he has gummies, but small quantities.

My SIL always feeds him all kinds of crap when he is over there, and then she calls me saying he had an accident in his pants. If she would just listen to me, it could save a whole lot of hassle.

[drmomentum[$]]

It just occurred to me that I may have ruined my chances of ever being appointed to the president's council on bioethics.

-JP

[jgibson2[$]]

JP,
Allergies don't cause hyperactivity, but itching and assorted discomforts may contribut to hyperactivity.

BTW, read the label on that benedry before you take it. Be sure it doesn't have red dye #40 or #3 in it.

[lynnzop[$]]

jgibson2 said

JP,
Allergies don't cause hyperactivity, but itching and assorted discomforts may contribut to hyperactivity.

BTW, read the label on that benedry before you take it. Be sure it doesn't have red dye #40 or #3 in it.

Interesting point. I am very jittery after I've gotten my allergy shots from itching. Feels like I'm high on something (Not that I'd know). I'm sure to the uneducated observer, I probably look like I"m hyperactive with all the moving around to alleviate the discomfort.


Speaking of medications, I just looked at the cough syrup I give my child - Robitussen DM. Red#40, right in the ingredient label.

Lynn

[drmomentum[$]]

True, quite true, Judy. Itchiness can make one hyper.

BTW - our benadryl is usually the dye-free kind.

I ended up taking clemastine fumarate instead. This stuff knocks me out, but it will take a while.

While we're polluting JP, should I start in on the scotch? The less-expensive stuff, mind you. I promise not to drive or operate heavy machinery.

-JP (This is turning into an interesting Monday night.)

[lynnzop[$]]

Is there red dye #40 in the scotch? If not, it may negate the test.

Do you still feel funnY?

Lynn
who really wants this to be a serious discussion, but maybe tomorrow

[jgibson2[$]]

drmomentum said

True, quite true, Judy. Itchiness can make one hyper.

BTW - our benadryl is usually the dye-free kind.

I ended up taking clemastine fumarate instead. This stuff knocks me out, but it will take a while.

While we're polluting JP, should I start in on the scotch? The less-expensive stuff, mind you. I promise not to drive or operate heavy machinery.

-JP (This is turning into an interesting Monday night.)

I found this:

Alcohol
Alcohol increases the likelihood and the severity of side effects like drowsiness and confusion.

Doesn't say anything about interfering with breathing or elevating blood pressure. As long as you're not driving, why not?