Looking for Advice from Teachers

**pippadaisy**[$] · #1 03-23-2005, 04:54 PM

Here is our situation:

My daughter, Beanie, was five in January. She was diagnosed with sensory integration dysfunction (or sensory processing disorder, whatever they are calling it this week) when she was 2.5, and has received OT services ever since.

We suspect that she may have Asperger's, but is very high functioning. Exams by the developmental peds at the children's hospital were inconclusvie... one psychologist felt that she has indicators of Asperger's, but needs to see how she develops further, and the pediatric resident felt she didn't. Both, however, acknowledged that she has trouble modulating her moods and behavior, and suggested behavior therapy. We've already been through three child psychologists, none of whom knew what to do with her.

If you look at her from a purely academic standpoint, she is gifted. She's been reading chapter books for months, has a vocabulary that's absolutely frightening for a five-year-old, loves science, and is working on her math skills. For two years, she's been in an excellent pre-school where she has thrived with the challenges they give to the kids.

Now that it's time for kindergarten, we feel positively screwed. We tried to get her into the charter school at her preschool, but lottery preference is given to City kids, and we are a mile outside the City. We've looked at two private schools that could work, but the tuition is more than we can swing. Our local public school is just NOT something that's going to work for her (and the developmental folks agreed that she's going to fail in social settings if she's not challenged) as they feel children should be able to read by 2nd grade, and in kindergarten they are working on things like patterning, alphabet recognition, etc.

G and I feel helpless... because we can't afford private school, we will let her down, and we don't want that. However, my education background was in secondary ed, and I don't have ANY idea what options I could or should look for or push for at this level. I'm just petrified that we are going to be trapped into sending her to the public Kindergarten, she's going to fail miserably, and hate school.

Any ideas/suggestions? We are getting desperate.

*emeleel* · #2 03-23-2005, 05:43 PM

You KNOW what my suggestion is, don't you?

**pippadaisy**[$] · #3 03-23-2005, 05:46 PM

Oops. I left that part out, didn't I? I KNEW I was forgetting something.

Our original plan WAS to homeschool her. We never had ANY intentions of regular schooling for her.

My main concern is that, because of her behavioral problems, it isn't going to work. Whenever I try to work with her, she loses it... her comfort zone is home, and that's where we've found she is most likely to have her melt-downs. I'd LOVE to homeschool her... but she doesn't respond well to me at all. Hence our dilemna. My homeschooling dreams were shot to heck with all her behavioral issues.

**mjfrombuffalo**[$] · #4 03-23-2005, 05:48 PM

My fear would be (from a child development standpoint, not a teacher nor do I play one on TV) that homeschooling would eliminate some opportunities to learn social skills from small groups of children in a classroom setting.

*emeleel* · #5 03-23-2005, 05:49 PM

I have the same problem with Sean - whom I suspect has mild Asperger's, BTW. What I have had to do is let him as much free reign over his own learning, with me sneakily steering, as I can without letting him think he's the one in control.

Gotta run for now, but I'll be back to chit chat later.

*emeleel* · #6 03-23-2005, 05:51 PM

Quote:

mjfrombuffalo said

My fear would be (from a child development standpoint, not a teacher nor do I play one on TV) that homeschooling would eliminate some opportunities to learn social skills from small groups of children in a classroom setting.

Oy. MJ, I love ya, but the "socialization" argument is, for most people, not an issue. There are tons and tons of articles and studies and so forth that prove that the worry is unfounded.

**mjfrombuffalo**[$] · #7 03-23-2005, 05:52 PM

:shrug: Like I said, not a teacher, coming from a child social work perspective. I wasn't using it as an "argument" either, BTW, for or against homeschooling. My concern is that a) from what I know of aspargar's, learning social skills is important and b) assuming that at some point the child *will* be in a classroom setting (high school? college? whenever), it would be helpful for the child to be exposed a little to the setting at some point, and perhaps sooner would be better than later. But what do I know.

**pippadaisy**[$] · #8 03-23-2005, 06:07 PM

That's the one thing that never concerned me.

Beanie already is in dance, would probably join Daisies, and they have special extracurriculars for homeschooled kids here.

*emeleel* · #9 03-23-2005, 07:15 PM

Delaying or not ever going to "real"

school can actually be helpful for children with sensory problems and Asperger's-type problems - school is too much overload for many of these children. Controlling their environment to smaller groups until they are able to deal with larger groups can be very good for them.

Pippa, just in case you want to ask around, get some advice, there are 3 groups at YahooGroups:

Asperger's Homeschooling lists

The second one is the best one, as they have the most members, but I can't remember your feelings on religion. I was a member for a while but had to drop it so as to pare down my own schedule. They welcome people who are searching and questioning.

**pippadaisy**[$] · #10 03-23-2005, 07:31 PM

Thanks Melanie! I just submitted an application! Even if we could homeschool her for a year or two, then get her into the Charter school, that would be PERFECT. I actually came home from the information session at the charter school in tears because if I could have designed a school for her, that would be it.

I'll take the religious aspect under advisement.

I learned a long time ago that the majority of homeschoolers have that as a huge part of their lives and I learned to work around it in most situations. I'm sort of non-denominational, but DH is an atheist. It's work.

*emeleel* · #11 03-24-2005, 10:28 AM

Great, Pippa!

Now that I've got a little more time, I can talk about me and Sean some more. As I said, I suspect he has mild Asperger's, and I also suspect he may have some mild sensory issues, too. We have the behavioral issues you mention with Beanie - he goes head to head with me and some days it is murder.

So I do a lot of guiding and steering. Until this past fall, I didn't do a whole lot of "formal" schooling with him, either. I would do it from time to time, we'd butt heads long enough and wear me down, and I'd drop it for a while. But as long as he was learning on his own I wasn't too worried about it. He played educational games on the computer (learned a lot that way), he asks questions like crazy, he reads, etc. It wasn't until he started winding down learning on his own that I started making him have some formal school time on a regular basis. And as I mentioned in year-round schooling thread, we do it a section at a time with breaks in between, just like public year-round schooling.

Even though he has formal school time each day, it's really not much. We have 4 subjects (Math, Science, Language Arts, History & Geography) that he does. He doesn't like for me to sit down and teach him, so I put up a chart with his work for the week (what pages to do) and he sits down and does the day's work in whatever order he wants. He reads through the material and instructions and asks for help as needed. He starts at 10:00 and is usually done by 12:00, although if he gets stuck on anything he has such a negative personality that he gets mad and upset and it takes 3 times as long to get something done than if he would just calm down.

One thing I did for him is to set up a desk that is facing a wall, with minimal distractions around him. My only "dream" about homeschooling that got really shattered is the "mom and all kids sit down at the table and work together" dream. He gets so distracted and completely spazzes out if there is anything else going on, like noise, that he can't concentrate. I tried schooling both kids at the same time and he would have a meltdown every day. So now he works alone, and if needs to, we have some "gun muffs" (hearing protectors, you can get them at the hardware store for protection against noisy tools, lawnmowers, etc.) that he can wear if he's getting really worked up.

About the sneaky guidance - I do this all sorts of ways. I buy books about subjects and then just "casually" leave them lying around. Games, computer games, etc. I let him ask questions and put in some knowledge beyond the basic answer, but without turning it into a 30 minute lecture. Field trips. And so on. I know that Sean is still learning a lot even though not a lot of time is being expended on the formal, core subjects. One thing that I try to remember is that he can always catch up when he is ready - as long as he is being exposed to the basics on a regular basis, when he's older and ready and willing he can re-learn anything he needs to. Dr. Raymond Moore's book "Successful Family Homeschooling" (or something like that) mentions a study done some years ago about math learning. One set of children learned math at the usual pace and routine through the early school years. Another set was not taught math until they were 13. Guess what? The 13 year olds picked it up so fast that at the end of the time period they were on par with the other kids.

Some days it is exasperating to teach Sean at home. But when I think about the issues he would have to deal with at school and how *miserable* he would be in school, it's worth it to me.

**pluckyduck** · #12 03-25-2005, 08:13 PM

Pippa -

First of all, big hugs!!

There are a healthy handful of us on the board with Asperger-like DX kids. My Dan's DX is "Aspergers only he's not". You can follow an Asperger checklist for Dan pretty much down the line, but he differs sharply enough in a couple of areas to make it clear that he's different. Different among the different, that's my Dan.

I'm a big fan of homeschooling in general, but I wouldn't have made that choice for Dan, even if it was a practical one for me. Dan needed services that were integrated into his daily classes, and elementary school was quite a blessing. The special needs services in elementary and intermediate were far more than I could have given him myself...and school was wonderful. (Middle school has been a BIT more of a challenge...but nothing too bad, as long as we are on top of it. Seeing him star in school productions, or hang out on the middle school dance committee -- socializing and learning and socializing and learning as he is going along, how wonderful has that been.)

Have you visited your local school and observed the classes? I had to be drug kicking and screaming. It wasn't until I went and watched and saw all of the special things going on that I was able to get the image of "special needs" classes, left over from my youth, out of my head.

Watching what when on and then talking to the teachers made all of the difference. These wonderful women and men made completely individual lesson plans for each kid..in a 4 to 1 ratio

and taught each one as if they were being individually tutored while keeping the socialization of an entire class going.... while keeping the kids integrated with the entire student body. Amazing.

Andrea

edit ps -- what I am trying to say is that, if you do have to go public school, if you get your daughter formally classified with an IEP, there has to be an instruction plan that is tailored AROUND HER, not around what is normally done in kindergarten. Is it unusual to have an IEP that is much more advanced than the normal kindergarten level, well sure, but what of it? With the right set of educators, it's a piece of cake. Beanie won't be a surprise to people who have been trained in special education, she'll be a delight!

Getting to know whom you might be working with on the other end is critical. The right people will take care of you.

**Prepoia**[$] · #13 03-25-2005, 10:47 PM

Andrea is right. Public education has a lot of money that is spent with special needs children and your child can benefit greatly by it. But, check out your school district and see what they offer. I truly wish it was possible for every student in every school to have an IEP. Each child is so different from every other child that it would be great. But, in middle school we have 30-35 children in every class. Our special needs classes have a great lower ratio and again sometimes it's 1 to 4 (or up to about 10 or so in middle school). But some districts don't do as good a job as others so check it out. One of the neighbors I had when I lived in a differnt district had to fight for her Autistic child every step of the way and finally drove him to a different school, then different district (open enrollment) to get what she wanted and needed for her child. But it can be done. Parents have a lot of clout when it comes to anything that falls into the special education category.

In middle school it does get a bit more difficult. I mainstream language arts in one of my hours and I enjoy that hour more than most of my others. Other teachers don't. Some teachers hate having a para pro or resource room teacher or other adult in the classroom with the kids because they honestly don't like being accountable. These are not the good teachers, by the way. That's why they don't want anyone seeing what they do and how they do it. But, for every one of those are 5 more who have no problem with the concept.

I have one hour of Health that I teach each day and I often have kids mainstreamed in that class because it's state mandated as a subject all kids need to have. I get them from resource rooms and more self-contained rooms. Right now I have an Autistic/Aspergers boy named Tyler who has shown so much socialization advancement that he actually has begun talking with me and does minor interaction with the kids when we do group things. I don't have anyone in the room with me with him but he's holding his own quite well. The kids love him. He's very competitive and at the end of the hour we often play Silent Ball. But he's gone from having a tantrum when he loses to saying, "Good game" to the winner in the 10 weeks he's been in my class. This is huge because he's pretty severe and up until this year needed a picture book to use for communication.

Great things can happen in public schools too. It's up to you to do the homework in your area.

Home schooling is a great option for many. If done properly it's as good as any formal education. I homeschooled a child (not my own) four hours a day for about a year and found it a positive experience. Everyone that speaks about it on this board sounds as though they are committed to what it takes to do a great job. But, it's not for everyone. Some kids don't respond well to parent being teacher. Some parents aren't organized or consistent enough. Some parents do it for the wrong reasons (some need babysitters...some don't want the hassle of getting kids to school everyday because of their work schedules...some are doing it because they think (like breast feeding) it somehow shows them in the light of super mom/dad. But, if you make the firm committment to this full time job, home schooling is wonderful and enriching. What can be better than that teacher/student ratio?

The socialization that the child receives at dance or sports is a different kind once they get to middle school than the day to day interaction between students. We often get homeschooled kids once they reach that age. What's best? It all depends on the child and the parent that does the homeschooling. Again, each child is different with different needs and each parent is different with different needs and life situations.

Either way, as I always say, "Do your homework!"

Sandy

**pippadaisy**[$] · #14 03-25-2005, 10:55 PM

Darn it! I knew I left out too much information.

There's my frustration. She's had an IEP for the past two years. My problem? She's done phenomenally well in school because we went out of our way to find a preschool that she COULD excel in and that would challenge her. Because there is no evidence of issues at school (we found a very student-led preschool that has a very free flow to the day), she loses services.

I guess that's why I'm so darn angry. We have gone out of our way to help her for the past three years, and have somehow set her up to fail in public education. Had we ignored everything and let her hit the school district as it, she'd have been classified right off the bat. At this point, our options are to try to do whatever we can in our power to help her and screw the public school, OR, put her in public school, let her fail, and then go back to getting her the help that she needs.

Part of me wants to go with option two, but then I'm SO AFRAID that she will hate school and learning, and I don't want that for her! I want her to continue to love learning, but feel powerless.

**pluckyduck** · #15 03-25-2005, 11:33 PM

Deep breath.

Girlfriend, with everything you have on your plate right now, I can't imagine....

Okay. Just because they say she loses services doesn't mean she loses services, it just means your battle is more uphill than if everybody were sitting at a table agreeing on the right thing to do for the individual child. Generally, a politely agressive parent with a decent case worker and a cooperative teacher can get anything accomplished.

And then there are the exceptions. Grrrr.

Whether Beanie is Aspergers or Beanie is gifted with sensory integration disorder, she IS IS IS special needs.

Put aside her advanced abilities (not uncommon with Aspergers but something that school districts don't seem to get happy about addressing in general)...what are her other challenges?

I've never been a big fan of taking the kid through a battery of tests and evaluations to get fancy DX placed, but I've not really had to. If you want an IEP and you have a medical Aspergers DX from somebody, you will get an IEP if you push...hopefully wouldn't have to threaten, but that too.

The basic fear you have is that kindergarten won't be challenging enough and that you'll lose her. Welcome to the parent of a gifted child hell...my Adam still makes fun of his kindergarten teacher and all of the stupid stuff he had to endure the entire year. (And yes, I feel guilty that I put him through it.) If that were the only issue, I'd raise the homeschooling flag as that's what I would have done with him if I could have.

Kids in the spectrum (if Beanie really is in the spectrum), have a bunch of other challenges in school success that don't come from book smarts.

Fine and gross motor skills? (there's a %%^$ lot of %^%^$# coloring in kindergarten and ^&&%^$ grading on it)

Ability to stay on task?

Eye contact?

Conversation...not long speeches of knowledge, but true spontaneous conversation back and forth on topic?

Aspergers has gone from being a "huh, what's that" kind of scratch head term to being a pretty darn powerful DX to get people to jump.

???

Andrea

*emeleel* · #16 03-25-2005, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Fine and gross motor skills? (there's a %%^$ lot of %^%^$# coloring in kindergarten and ^&&%^$ grading on it)

Ability to stay on task?

Eye contact?

Conversation...not long speeches of knowledge, but true spontaneous conversation back and forth on topic?

Wheeeeee!

And now y'all know why I was sooooo glad that I already had homeschooling firmly planted in mind even before kids came along - school would have been murder on Sean and I'd never, ever heard of Aspergers until last year. (And guess where I first read about it?

3 guesses and the first two don't count.

) And here in backwater AL I doubt too many other people have, especially in our oh so lovely local school system.

If you decide to go the public school route, what's the possibility of "afterschool" where she keeps up with her fellow students, "puts up" with the pace there, and you give her the challenge she needs at home. It's a lot of effort, and it could easily lead to burnout unless she thrives on it. And of course there is that matter of allll that free time on your hands, you know...

**pippadaisy**[$] · #17 03-26-2005, 08:16 AM

Fine and gross motor skills are within normal limits now after nearly three years in OT.

Her eye contact is pretty good... again, working with her, putting her on a GFCF diet.

Her conversation is so/so, which is why we didn't get a formal diagnosis. Again, we've worked with her. She can sometimes stay on topic, and sometimes veers off into her lecturing. Of course, she didn't do the lecturing at the eval, but did veer off into parts unknown at times.

You are right, though. I laid down and rolled over, and that's not like me. I'm going to call the CPSE, forward her a copy of the eval and say "Look. She's been doing well because we've SET HER UP to do well. I'm not going to put her in a position to fail just so we can "get back" the services we've had."

**pluckyduck** · #18 03-27-2005, 03:10 AM

Quote:

pippadaisy said

You are right, though. I laid down and rolled over, and that's not like me. I'm going to call the CPSE, forward her a copy of the eval and say "Look. She's been doing well because we've SET HER UP to do well. I'm not going to put her in a position to fail just so we can "get back" the services we've had."

Did you just hit the nail on the head or what.

We are talking about kindergarten, not middle school, for heaven's sake. This will be her first exposure to formal school. What kind of idiot would withdraw services now? All of this work has been done to prepare Beanie for her best shot ...

Don and I have found it unnecessary to be combative (thank heavens), but we have at times had to be persistent. The early years for us were easier because everything was controlled by one teacher (each teacher was a gem).

Middle school has had new challenges. The kids switch "specials" four times a year. The first session was cooking four days a week, for example. Turns out (make your hair stand on end), the special teachers have no support for their LD kids whatsoever. No training, no modification help, nothing.

Let me give you an example. 6th grade shop is mechanical drawing, for an entire marking period. My kid has dyspraxia, a handwriting disability that, despite years and years of OT, means that he can form letters or pictures no better than a 3 year old. And he's going to do mechanical drawing??

Once we clued into the specials issue (after Dan was failing cooking because he couldn't organize or memorize the sheets of materials to take the tests, and he was getting his speech therapy pull out twice a week from there and couldn't figure out how to make up the work)..once we clued in, we got his case worker involved and the case worker went to speak to each one of the specials teachers as Dan was moving into a new special. The teachers have each responded to me: Thank God. They tell me that nobody helps them with these kids. The cooking teacher said, I have 7 classfied kids in my one class of 14. I have state curriculum I am supposed to follow. I have no training in special ed and I have no help in understanding the individual kids and what they need to be successful. I don't know how to modify the lesson plans for each one.

The point in my ramble (there is one!), is that I find overwhelmingly, everybody wants to help! Some people need an adminstrative CYA to be able to help, but parental pressure can give them the CYA they are looking for.

Federal law puts you in the driver seat, as long as you have your classification. Whatever happens, do not lose your classification, not at kindergarten! Beanie sounds as if she is doing great and perhaps transitioning out of classifaction at some point down the road will happen...but not now, yes?

Hugs!
Andrea