Any words of wisdom?

[eris esoteric]

OK, so yeah, I'm asking for advice about a kid. MJ, Leslie, don't worry, I'm still in the club. It's my nephew.

My family doesn't talk. We don't. The last time I saw my nephew he was in utero. He's 8 now. Like I said, we just don't talk much.

But the brother's moving back to America, from Japan, and in the process of moving, dropped the two boys off with the grandparents for a couple weeks. I was talking to my mom last week, and she was really concerned about Lump's behavior. When I prompted her, she told me that Lump had not been... socializing well with the animals. So dad talked to Lump about it. Lump got very upset, and started slapping HIMSELF in the face. On another occasion, mom had to talk to him about being nicer to the animals. Again, he got very upset and slapped his own face.

Lump is apparently a very bright little boy. This is not surprising. My brother may be a lot of things, but he's got the brains.

My first thought was, possibly uncharitably, was that it might be a cultural thing... similar to picking one's own switch.

My coworker brought up the possibility of autism.

At this point, this is all the information I have to go on. And I am SERIOUSLY keeping in mind the fact that he is a young boy in the process of moving to a completely new country. That and the fact that a week with my parents would drive anyone nuts.

So, does anyone have any thoughts?

[hadassahchana[$]]

Exactly what is "being unkind to animals"? Calling them names is unpleasant. Torturing or killing them is a huge warning sign. And slapping himself doesn't sound like autism, although it does sound like a child acting out, one who is really angry about something.

Um, what I mean is, a high-functioning autistic kid wouldn't be likely to do that. If he were everely autistic, his parents would have noticed long ago, and your parents would certainly,and most likely not be able to communicate well with him.

[hadassahchana[$]]

I just reread your post, Eris, and something really stands out. Autistic kids who hit or flap or jump don't do it in response to a direct stimulus, they do it randomly and usually frewuently. Your parents noticing that he did it in response to being told to be kinder to animals doesn't sound like autism. I'd worry about him a lot.

[eris esoteric]

See, angry and acting out I can understand. And there's a long, sad tradition in my family of learning to take out your aggressions by picking on someone smaller and weaker than than you. As I said, my brother and I don't talk.

But the response of slapping himself in the face seems extremely strange. So I figured I'd float it past you guys, to see what you think.

[emeleel]

Sean will sometimes hit himself when he's really really mad. But it's only when we're really having it out with each other, not because I just "said something" to him.

Yes, I would really worry. It may be nothing more than the stress over the move, but I would definitely keep an eye on the situation if possible.

[hadassahchana[$]]

Ok, that kind of hitting may say something completely different to me than to Pippa, but here's my take:

#1 did that once. Only once, but it lasted for about three weeks. I've only ever spanked him once - for running out into the street in front of a bus. After that, he explained to his doll over and over again that we don't run in front of buses. He did not hit his doll, just explained.

Then, when he was 3 1/2, his teeth needed capping- baby teeth filled with cavities. We tried our regular dentist, but #1 was too little and scared to hold still. So, we got an appointment with a pediatric dentist, head of his dept. at U of M dental school. He wouldn't let me stay in the treatment room - told me that #1 was going to have to learn to behave.

Ten minutes later, the assistant came back to the waiting room dragging a screaming and sobbing #1, tossed him at me and said they could do nothing for my "little brat", pushed him again and stalked off. Now, although #1 had his character flaws, he was not one to cry, not at the doctor, dentist, just wasn't a big cryer. Yet he screamed and sobbed all the way home, where he fell asleep in a damp little lump.

I called the dentist who would not speak to me. I deamneded to speak to the assistant, who also wouldn't come to the phone, so I gave up. #1 woke up and wanted a bath, so I got him ready. And after he got into his bath, he proceeded to slap his own face over and over and said,"You stupid brat! I'll smack you again if you won't hold still!".

I was just devastated. The words enver came out again, but the self-slapping happened over and over and over, whenever he would get upset about anything, and sometimes just in the middle of his playing.


I kept calling back, and finally the recptionist told me that sometimes, they had to use a little fore to convince the children to sit still and let the dentist work on them. And yes, she did think that maybe someone might have given #1 a small slap, but nothing major.

When I found a *good* pediatric dentist, who was absolutely horrified by what had happened to #1, he did the procedure in the hospital, but only after talking it through oer and over again with #1. He actually took him into a playroom, gave him a teddy bear, and got him to act out what had happened to him. Then, the dentist took the bear, asked him to be good, and made the bear act out. Then, he gave the bear a hug and told him he didn't want him to feel scared, that he loved him he was going to give him a comic book and then they could decide how to fix the bear's little teeth. #1 stopped slapping himslef after that, it never happened again. He just needed to work it out in a way that made him feel safe. But my point is, that slapping behaviour can happen in a child who's had soemthing really awful happen to him. It might help if your parents can find someone to do a little short-term counseling with him.

[Prepoia[$]]

IMHO:
I am not going to guess why he's displaying these behaviors but they usually are serious indicators of major psycological problems. We have some autistic kids at school who do random hitting of themselves when agitated but so do other kids that aren't autistic (like the cutters who self mutilate or even less importantly looked at but a signal to me of problems...the kids who write all over themselves or play slapping games which hurt each other).

The biggest problem with is behavior is being mean to animals. It must be bad or your parents (who don't discuss issues much) mentioned it. Often times violent criminals displayed this behavior when young.

Now the bad part is that your noncommunicative (and maybe bully brother) is probably not going to get psychological help for his son and there's not much you or your parents can do about that issue.

[pippadaisy[$]]

Sorry... I am no help with diagnosis ideas for kids I can't see when I can't even get one for my own kid I DO see.

Cindy, I'm HORRIFIED by that dentist story! Our dentist is fantastic, and I think every spectrum family in the area goes to her. My crazy sensory-defensive kids? We actually do exams with me laying in the chair and kids laying on me getting big hugs. Butter sits on my lap, hygienist scoots chair up to my knees, and we lean her back. Buster, the worst to begin with of all the kids, has worked his way up to actually sitting BY HIMSELF this past visit and GETTING X-Rays! It took 3 years to get him to the point where they could do x-rays, but they waited... they won't force an issue unless they HAVE to, like Bug's messed up teeth. And then I wore a lead apron and held Bug in a lead apron for his X-rays.

I :heart: the kids' dentist.

[jgibson2[$]]

Cindy's abusive dentist should be prosecuted.

Lump needs to be evaluated by professionals. Possible that it's an adjustment problem, but doesn't sound likely. He needs help anyway - - and there's not a lot Eris can do.

[magenta321]

I think I'd get him evaluated by a psychologist while he was in my care. I'm sorry if that's not popular, but the hurting animals thing is a huge neon sign that something is majorly wrong. The self-abuse would be icing on the cake for me.

I imagine there's a possibility he's abused. If you have a window of opportunity to find that out and possibly put an end to it, you owe it to that poor child. If not, then something is stressing that kid out in a big way, and I'd want to talk to someone who could help me understand it so I could help him with it. That's just my two not-a-parent cents.

Maybe MJ can add some insight from her experience.

BTW, why is his nick "Lump?"

[eris esoteric]

Lump because it's what I called him the only time I've actually "seen" him, which was when my sister-in-law was pregnant.

And as for stress, they're moving from Japan to America. Hell yeah, the kid's probably got stress issues.

[mtomm[$]]

And I bet he is staying with people he only knows marginally. I'd say that would be stressful, too.

[Prepoia[$]]

Stressed yes; but it doesn't explain being cruel to animals or self hurting. Many kids make many moves from country to country without these symptoms.
I don't think you can legally take another person's child to a doctor without medical power of attorney (which they may have because I always left it with my parents when they babysitted for more than an evening and which wasn't a legal document but just signed permission).

[phoenixx]

MJ, Leslie, don't worry, I'm still in the club.

As for the behavior, there are so many red flags there it isn't even funny. Ask your parents if they have POA while the kid is in their care. If so, take him to a good shrink in the area - this sounds like red flags for abuse, but it will take a professional analysis, possibly with more than one visit, to find out. In the meantime, remove the animals from his presence. Seriously. It isn't fair to the loyal family pets to get hurt because of this kid, and in reality it isn't fair to the kid either to expect to "learn to treat them right" over night - he obviously has other stuff going on.

[amykhar]

Of course, he could just be a Harry Potter fan who thinks he's a house elf I think my point is that a forum can't diagnose a kid. He needs to be evaluated by a true professional.

[mjfrombuffalo[$]]

That's why I've resisted commenting. "Not been socializing well with animals" is so vague to begin with, and there are so many reasons why the child might be acting the way he is. You also don't mention anything about your brother or his wife's reaction to the behavior - for all you know, they've already had him evaluated and have plans for getting him treatment in the States. Time to maybe talk with your brother.

[Redlass]

Yeah, without witnessing the behavior, it's hard to say.

Eris, we have a mutual friend whose #2 child used to be prone to hitting himself. Were there issues there? Yes. Thankfully, most of those have been addressed and he's blossomed into the lovely young man that he is today (remind me sometime to tell you about all the good things going on with him--it's pretty heartwarming).

We also don't know what environment he's come from. Yes, there might be some psychological issues, but isn't your mom a trained professional in that area? Are there things she's picked up on?

It might also be that they simply need to give a repeated message about kindness. It's tough to do at that age, but they do hear. The thing is, I don't think any message sinks in the first 10 to 12 times you tell an 8-year-old boy....

[theworm[$]]

even witnessing the behavior - it's hard to tell.
The one think everyone knows is that the kid is under stress and seeing a child councelor couldn't hurt.

[Prepoia[$]]

I think that the concensus of us all is that it would be wise to get counseling. But (and I may be wrong) it seems that her brother may not be "into" that and that eris' hands are tied. Her mind can worry but since communication between her and her brother is minimal, I doubt that it will comfortable for her to approach him.

Maybe your mom?

[eris esoteric]

Sure, let me get right on that, "Hey, bro, remember how you used to beat the crap out of me? You doin' that to your kid now?" conversation.

[magenta321]

Prepoia said

Stressed yes; but it doesn't explain being cruel to animals or self hurting. Many kids make many moves from country to country without these symptoms.
I don't think you can legally take another person's child to a doctor without medical power of attorney (which they may have because I always left it with my parents when they babysitted for more than an evening and which wasn't a legal document but just signed permission).

But, CPS could step in while you are caring for another's child. I'm not in the situation, so I can't say if I would ask CPS to step in or not. But it's certainly on my mind from reading this.

[thinkerlady[$]]

Another viewpoint, but not so drastic. Absolutely something is wrong. But it could be as simple as