From garage bands to packaged groups (question 4)

[conradd]

The fourth (and final ) question is:
Rock music has seen the evidence, at least once in every decade from the 50’s to the 90’s, of the cycle of a new, often raw, simple, unpolished musical style (think garage band) giving way to a more commercialized, highly refined product. Some of the refinement is artist induced, but most often it is market driven for a wider commercial appeal. Discuss how this tug-of-war between original creativeness and marketplace commercialism has defined rock history. Show at least one example of this battle in each of the decades of rock music from the 50’s to the 90’s. Discuss how the newer, raw style was transformed into the more refined, commercial product by the industry for wider marketing.

He's listened to me describe how garage bands in the 60s sprang up, well in every garage. He's kind of stuck on the commercialism aspect, and, being a typical teen, places more value in the opinions of EA members he's never met than his mother's ideas. . So, what do you all think?

Deb

[phoenixx]

Tell him to watch that retarded Tom Hanks movie about the Committments to get the picture. Tom Hanks is evil, but the movie does show how a garage band goes mainstream.

Or look at bands that are accused of "selling out" these days - Metallica, a garage band in the beginning and now a polished mainstream group; Soundgarden; Motley Crue from the 80s; Led Zepplin form the 70s; ummmm.... drawing a blank on the 60s and 50s....

Hopefully that gets the wheels turnin'

[kurt_messick]

Rap music is a good example.

If an artist wants to be a 'big' success, i.e., reach the mainstream audience rather than a narrow demographic of African American urban youth, several things have to happen:

(1) The language has to change. Not so much the obscenity or lack thereof, but the use of mainstream English for the most part has to replace the language of the streets, which most people can't relate to, and sometimes can't understand.

(2) The message has to change. The militant edge has to be softened.

(3) Sometimes, the artist has be different. Tone down various things that place the artist beyond the mainstream; they become mainstream with an edge, rather than beyond the mainstream.

(4) White artists still can have broader success than African Americans, even in the genre developed by and for African Americans (Vanilla Ice, Marky Mark).

[phoenixx]

Interesting Point - or you have the reverse packaging happen, as in Eminem - white kid from not-so-broken home goes gangsta white trash rappa, incredibly intelligent black man (I forget which rapper has a doctorate from one of the ivies - snoop dog? coolio? can't remember now) and give him a wierd hair cut, ebonics, gangsta tude, a dark past, a psuedo jail record and a posse - instant success.

Leslie

[mrisch[$]]

I think an interesting example is Pink Floyd. In this 60's and 70's, they were a garage band. Relatively unpolished, mostly playing in small venues. But then a funny thing happened. Dark Side of the Moon debuted in the early '70s and stayed there. By the '80's, they were the whole package - The Wall debuted in 1979 with just a few concerts, and this was a broad commercial success (despite it being the fanatical vision of Roger Waters).

The band split up, but both the remaining Pink Floyd and Roger Waters continued to have big shows in stadiums.

And now they have come full circle in the late '90's and '00's. David Gilmour has sworn off stadiums and is performing acoustic shows in small venues, and Roger Waters is making music with original Pink Floyd member Syd Barrett.

[magenta321]

I'll talk about my favorites from my childhood: Metallica.

Metallica was a metal band that played small venues, and was living hand to mouth. In fact, they lived with Anthrax, and used to eat... I forget what they called it... but it was bologna "sandwiches" where there was no bread... just your hand. In other words, they were not doing well.

Metallica was hard and heavy back in the day. They had a large underground following, but weren't making much money. They swore they'd never sell out. They kept doing what they were doing. They swore they'd never make a video. They lied.

When the album "...And Justice for All" came out, they decided they'd finally make a video. They released "One", which showed very little of the band, and a lot of a pre-existing movie. Their video was a work of art, that allowed you to listen to the song, or to follow the movie, but did not make them look like "rock stars" or glorify Metallica in any way. It was a unique and different video.

People started saying they sold out then. I didn't think so, because they kept their heavy sound, and their balls to the wall attitude. I think they sold out with the black album. They lost their heavy, hard-hitting sound. The whole album just sounds campy. In fact, this album bosted several videos (three, I believe) and one video (Enter Sandman) was even remixed. Blech.

They continued though, making their heavy sound more main stream over time. James Hetfield took singing lessons. Kirk Hammett became a classical guitar player. They played with a Symphony, and cut an album ($$$). And they started ripping off other people's songs too (I'm sorry, I love Metallica, and I love "Turn the Page," but it's not their song). In fact, they ripped off another song on that album. I think that's the same album with "Whiskey in the Jar", which is an old Irish song, which was also recorded, and heavily influenced by Deep Purple (I think).

That's when I knew Metallica sold out. They changed their sound. I have their demo. I wish I could let you all hear it. It is so rough and unrefined. Now they are playing with Symphonies, recording other people's songs, and don't think twice about recording videos to help them sell more albums.

I loved Metallica, but I don't love the Mo'Moneytallica that they've become.

[mrisch[$]]

Margaret - you would appreciate this - Jonny Z is my second cousin (my dad's cousin). Though I didn't know that's what they called him until I saw him on Behind the Music. I just knew (and know) him as Jonathan, who had something to do with Metallica.

[magenta321]

You know, back when I was like 11, I got online because of Metallica. We posted on the bbs of Prodigy We were called the Church of Metallica My nick was "Devil's Plaything." Most people had Metallica-related nicks (like Harvestor of Sorrow, or Master of Puppets, etc), but I had a Danzig song for my nick

I used to live, sleep, eat, and breathe Metallica. They're still *good*, but I don't look at them the way I once did.

[brian_igo]

I'm going to disagree with the entire premise. What was the hard edge that led to the commercial acceptance of disco music in the seventies? Were there basement bands in the sixties who loved polyester before it was cool and built their own synthesizers while the rest of the world was listening to the Beatles? Early rap (Grandmaster Flash and Kurtis Blow) was very refined thanks to its roots in Soul. But the genre only found commercial success when groups like NWA, Beastie Boys, Run DMC and 2 Live Crew stripped the music to its rhythmic roots and made it harder. Hard metal bands who crank out a ballad will get to the top of the charts quickly, but the genre is led by groups that remain true to their beliefs and let their music evolve as expressions of art. This is why Metallica is still making albums and Motley Crue is making porn videos.

Major labels and commercial acts do try to attach themselves to the fashion of the moment as a route to success. But it is hardly as revolutionary (or as much a sellout) as the question implies. There have always been ballad groups, boy bands and sex kittens and there always will. The clothes, hair and tempo changes but that's all. (Do you think the A&R guy who saw Jon Bon Jovi playing in some Jersey bar offered him a record deal because his band rocked? Or do you think Bon Jovi didn't play to their looks from the start? Ditto for any number of pop/rap/rock stars you want to mention in any generation.)

The only revolution is when someone who doesn't fit the mold, as grotesque as it might be (see Ozzy Osbourne/Marilyn Manson) gets a shot to break through. John Popper (Blues Traveller) having a major record deal is a legitimate miracle. Thank God talent still counts for something.


Brian

[eplovejoy]

Brian is mistaken. Disco started out among fringe clubs that catered to urban audiences, mostly made up of queers, blacks and Hispanics. The earlier disco of such acts as Sylvester and Joe Tex has a much rawer sexual content than does the music of the Bee Gees, K.C. and the Sunshine Band and the other acts that polished the stuff up to make it a mainstream phenomenon.

And this does happen throughout the history of pop music. The classic example is when Pat Boone took Little Richard's music and made it more bland so it would appeal to an audience not eager to embrace (even if only musically) a loud black man wearing makeup.