The "I've Read Wicked" and I'm ready to discuss it thread

**lynnzop**[$] · #1 10-17-2005, 03:49 PM

I suppose I have to blah blah blah in the first few lines so I don't spoil it for Delia when she mouses over.

Or I could just start a new post within the same thread.

Who is ready to discuss?

eris esoteric · #2 10-17-2005, 08:35 PM

I read it a couple years ago. Ready when you are.

**lynnzop**[$] · #3 10-17-2005, 10:39 PM

I deleted my questions and left them at work. Will post tomorrow, but feel free to discuss....Wormie is just going to have to stress out about not reading the thread.

**lynnzop**[$] · #4 10-18-2005, 08:19 AM

One of the first impressions I had of the book is how Maguire skips over so much of Elphaba's life - crucial moments. In the beginning, when he left when she was a toddler and there was another baby coming, and then skipped up to her late teen years at Shiz, I was really disappointed. Same thing after Ama's death when all the group split up and then we came back in when Elphaba was in her (mid?) twenties and a rebel. But the way he came back, almost through flashbacks, and relived most of those moments seemed to work.

Questions I'll ask, and open for discussion. Feel free to answer one or all.

Why was Nessarose born without arms?
Who was Elphaba's father?
Did Fieryo die?
Who was Liir?
At what point did Elphaba change from being Elphaba to the Witch? Did you feel more sympathetic toward her after reading the book?
Did reading the book influence your opinion of The Wizard of Oz (book or movie)?

frazzledspice · #5 10-18-2005, 12:29 PM

Oh, phooey. I just looked at my library's web site, and the one copy we have is out, due back 11/15.

I can get it on half.com for $4.59, maybe I'll do that...

**pippadaisy**[$] · #6 10-19-2005, 12:27 AM

Quote:

lynnzop said

Questions I'll ask, and open for discussion. Feel free to answer one or all.

Why was Nessarose born without arms?

I'm more curious why they changed it for the musical. The lack of arms made her totally dependent. I got that whole "little sister needs more than you do" vibe and Elphaba certainly got no love... it set up the dynamic between the sisters as well as Elphaba's easy transition to a complete loner who could go out on her own like she did.

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Who was Elphaba's father?

The interpretation from the musical seems to have followed along with the assumption that it was the Wizard. I'm still not entirely sure, and I think Maguire liked it a bit ambiguous.

(Lynn, I couldn't believe you were surprised... you've listened to the soundtrack... didn't you recognize Joel Grey? "Have another drink of green elixer, and we'll have ourselves a little mixer..."

Quote:

Did Fieryo die?

Yes. Fiyero is really, most sincerely dead, much as I didn't want him to be. His death was necessary to set up Elphaba's transformation once she got to the Vinkus. If he was still alive, she couldn't have gone there and changed everything.

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Who was Liir?

I've already read Son of a Witch so I'm going to skip this one.

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At what point did Elphaba change from being Elphaba to the Witch? Did you feel more sympathetic toward her after reading the book?

I don't think she did actually change. You can argue that her use of the Grimmerie and dabbling in magic changed her, but I really felt that it was more being painted with the same brush as her sister as anything else. As for the second part, abso-freaking-lutely!!! I LOVED Elphaba. I wanted her to live on... for her death to be faked. I never did like the Wizard, and Wicked justified my irrational dislike of him. After all, he lied from the beginning to get Dorothy and crew to do his bidding.

Quote:

Did reading the book influence your opinion of The Wizard of Oz (book or movie)?

Somewhat. I already disliked the Wizard, but I found myself much more sympathetic toward the Witch.

As for your first observation about the time periods skipped, I honestly didn't mind. Yes, you want more, more, more after reading it, but I think that the parts of her life that Maguire skipped over can be assumed... Elphaba spent her childhood caring for (and catering to) Nessarose. If Maguire had fleshed out every period that was skipped, Wicked would have been longer than War and Peace and would have been much slower moving than it was.

**lynnzop**[$] · #7 10-19-2005, 08:23 AM

I haven't seen the play, nor have I listened to the entire soundtrack (yet)...I really, really need to order it from Amazon, but I keep telling myself that it would be something I can put on my Christmas list.

So yes, I was surprised that the Wizard was Elphaba's father. Didn't see it coming until the clock dragon announced it. Poor Frex, he never really fathered any children, did he?

Elphaba seemed much more human in the first 2/3 of the book. Her affair with Fieyro was something else....never thought of the Wicked Witch having sex!!!!

I'm not really sure when she seemed to change over to me, it was gradual after Fieyro's death (and yes, I believe he's dead too, although I wanted the Scarecrow to be him as well!!!). I didn't understand Elphaba's obsession with Nor after Samaria and the rest of the family was taken away...she certainly didn't seem to care much for her when they were all living in the castle! Perhaps it was because of the guilt she felt over Fieyro, Samaria, and the rest.

**pippadaisy**[$] · #8 10-19-2005, 10:36 AM

Ah! I thought you were familiar with the entire soundtrack! It really is good, although I start singing "Popular" every time Kristen Chenoweth appears on West Wing.

Elphaba's obsession with Nor was guilt. She also saw a lot of herself in Nor, which I think exacerbated her guilt. It's also carried into Son of a Witch.

**lynnzop**[$] · #9 11-07-2005, 03:54 PM

Bump for Wormie. Let the discussions begin. Naomi, Ailsa, Cindy J, hope you join us soon!!!!

**theworm**[$] · #10 11-07-2005, 04:06 PM

Questions I'll ask, and open for discussion. Feel free to answer one or all.

Why was Nessarose born without arms?
I agree with what was said above - about her being totally dependant, but I also think that perception of the "dissabilities" was interesting. Nessarose had no arms and couldn't function on her own but was thought of as beautiful. Somehow Elphabas color was more of a dissability.
There are so many social issues touched on in this book (as in the original). Skin color, race relations, cultural issues, status (people/Animals/animals).

Who was Elphaba's father?
I think it was the wizard, but I didn't see it coming until the clock scene. I think that this realization changed Elphaba more than the grimmerie, her affair, or any other "event" in the book.

Did Fieryo die?
Yes - but I wish I knew more about why.

Who was Liir?
I think he is Elphaba and Fieryo's son, but I'll find out in the next book.

At what point did Elphaba change from being Elphaba to the Witch?
I don't think she ever changed. I think she just allowed others to believe what they wanted. and if she was a witch - she wasn't wicked - she, in fact, is one of the most pure "souls" in the book - though she denies having a soul - and the closing lines were so so sad.

Did you feel more sympathetic toward her after reading the book?
Yes - I see her as a tragic figure. Terribly missunderstood

Did reading the book influence your opinion of The Wizard of Oz (book or movie)
I don't know. I never liked the Wizard. We know from the first book that he is a fraud and a coward. And Wicked didn't change my image of Dorothy. It did change my opinion of Glinda.

So - who want to analzye the "sex scene" at the Philosophy club?

**lynnzop**[$] · #11 11-07-2005, 10:52 PM

That was one of those scenes that I was glad it dropped off before it got TOO detailed. I don't have my book here (lent it out) and it's been a few weeks, so I don't remember all the details around what happened. Refresh me (or start discussing and I'll probably remember)

There was a lot more sex in this book that I anticipated (not that it bothered me, I just didn't expect it from an "Oz" book)

The Dragon Clock seemed to me to be the essence of evil. I think Elphaba was partially cursed by being born in it. Which brings up an interesting question: Elphaba was born "different"...she wouldn't talk, would bite, and overall seemed to have a nasty disposition as a child. Was her nastiness innate to her personality or a result of her skin color making people react differently to her?

**pippadaisy**[$] · #12 11-08-2005, 12:04 AM

People reacting differently to her. Most children with disabilities or differences are protected from society by loving and accepting parents. Elphaba had neither.

**theworm**[$] · #13 11-08-2005, 09:08 AM

but I think there is more there. (though I agree she had horrid parents). She was born green, she had sharp teeth, she communicated differently, she was bound to keep her from scratching herself - she was treated more like an animal than a child - I think this is why she had such a passion about the animal/Animal issue.

The Philosophy Club scene is still a mystery to me. We had sex with a woman, and elf and a Tiger - on display for everyone while they were high on something. I didn't quite get it.

And the ticktok things (like the one Madame Morrible had). Where they an extension of the clock? Was that another analogy to machines taking "jobs" from people (or Animals)?

**pippadaisy**[$] · #14 11-08-2005, 09:46 AM

But did she act like an animal because she was treated like one or vice versa?

The tiktoks seemed to me more of an artificial intelligence. Thinking machines are always a frightening prospect, and they had a sort of religious connotation as well. Look at the reverence toward things like the clock and Madame Morrible's tiktok and then the suppression of the Animals. Thinking machines are okay, but human-like Animals are not?

**theworm**[$] · #15 11-08-2005, 09:50 AM

But when Elphaba was born with her sharp teeth, she bit the nursemaids nipple. This was not malice - the kid had sharp teeth, but that behavior and her color created a reaction.

**pippadaisy**[$] · #16 11-08-2005, 10:02 AM

True, but as any nursing mother can attest, babies with teeth will bite.

**lynnzop**[$] · #17 11-08-2005, 10:24 AM

And a baby with really sharp teeth is going to draw blood!

Quote:

And the ticktok things (like the one Madame Morrible had). Where they an extension of the clock? Was that another analogy to machines taking "jobs" from people (or Animals)?
...snip...
The tiktoks seemed to me more of an artificial intelligence. Thinking machines are always a frightening prospect, and they had a sort of religious connotation as well. Look at the reverence toward things like the clock and Madame Morrible's tiktok and then the suppression of the Animals. Thinking machines are okay, but human-like Animals are not?

Thinking machines are okay because they can still be controlled. Even the Grommit thing and the Clock were controlled by something else. Animals, like Dr. (goat, sorry, no book to reference) were thinking and acting on their own.

I found it amusing throughout the book to find the references to the more-known Wizard of Oz story. The woodcutter who's future MIL asked Nessarose to put a spell on him, the story behind how the monkeys developed wings (I think they were more Animals in the film than they seemed to be in the book), how Glinda gave Nessa the shoes that were the ruby slippers. I think Maguire did an awesome job of weaving those details into his story.

**pippadaisy**[$] · #18 11-11-2005, 03:19 PM

Dr. Dillamond. I know only because I can sing pretty much the entire soundtrack.

**theworm**[$] · #19 11-11-2005, 05:09 PM

When I read the first scene with Galinda and Dr. Dillamond on the train on the way to Shiz, I remember being totally taken by suprise to realize that he really was a goat! If they had alluded to the animal/Animal thing before that - I totally missed it. She kept referring to him as the goat and I thought it was as in "cantacerous old goat" - a term I favor and use often. It was delightful to realize that he was a talking goat!