What Will Michael Schiavo Do?

[hadassahchana[$]]

I have my health care proxy right here, just waiting for someone (actually, a few someones) to help me go through it. I just can't read any more about the Terri case. No one comes out smelling like a rose in this- not Michael Schiavo, not her parents- noe one, except Terri Schiavo herself, poor thing. This is breaking my heart. The big nagging fear I still have is that this is more of a domsetic violence issue than a right-to-die one.

I have to add, that if I were the parent of a severely disabled but not breain dead child, even knowing the law, I would kidnap that child so fast it wouldn't be funny. That isn't rational thought, that's pure maternal instinct. The whole mdeia circus, though? I honestly can't know what to think, whther that is a grief-stricekn family doing the only thing left or a horrible ploy to make an issue where there really isn't one. The only thing I do know is, I feel so horribly sorry for her mother. God willing, none of us here wil ever have to endure that kind of ordeal.


Cindy

[jgibson2[$]]

pippadaisy said

I didn't have all the information. She did return home to her parents for a few months, but her husband was living there as well:

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/WolfsonReport.pdf

I can't copy and paste since it's a PDF, but the citation is on page 8.

If you use "edit, select all, Control C" and paste to a Word document, you can cut and paste. PITA, but I did it:

The document says:

In September of 1990, she was brought home, but following only three weeks, she was returned to the College Park facility because the “family was overwhelmed by Terry’s care needs.”

It says home. For a married woman, home is with her husband. That in no way convinces me that she was turned over to her parents. Maybe she was, but it doesn't say that. I also said it wasn't relevant to the current battle.

pippadaisy said

Also, she is incapable of voluntary movement. All her movements are mere reflexes, due to the severe brain damage. She can't walk, etc. because the portions of the brain that control any voluntary function are shot.

She's at least as capable of voluntary movement as Stephen Hawking. That was my point. He has ALS and hasn't been able to move in probably more years than Terri. Inability to move voluntarily isn't of itself an indication of inability to think. In Terri's case, there is other evidence of lack of cortical function. The whole point I was making, apparently not very well, was that we don't make judgements about feeding tubes based on ability to swallow or ability to move voluntarily. At least we don't when the person who is incapable of moving, speaking, or swallowing is as brilliant and able to communicate as Stephen Hawking. He gets to keep his feeding tube because he is capable of the sort of complex thought necessary to decide whether that's a good idea or not.

The courts have ruled that Terri's husband gets to speak for her. I disagree with HIS decision, but not the court ruling.

pippadaisy said

Can someone explain her father's comments about cutting off her arms and legs? Does that have something to do with muscle atrophy? I can't find any explanation.

The only place I've heard that was Michael Schiavo stating that her father said he would do that if necessary to save her life -- I don't think it's actually been proposed by anyone. It is sometimes done for medical reasons when there are circulatory problems, burns, or infection -- but drastic surgery on someone in a persistent vegetative state makes no sense to me.

pippadaisy said

Oh, yeah, and Judy, there was another article about the testing... multiple swallow studies have been done... she can't take anything by mouth. She's been known to choke and gag just on the small amount of fluid they use to moisten her mouth and lips.

They've been very careful not to show her drooling, then, because if you can't handle that amount of moisture, you can't handle your own saliva.

[jgibson2[$]]

pippadaisy said

My father, Mr. Conservative Republican, is threatening to buy a VW bus, paint it paisley, and move to Colorado. He was super-disappointed when I explained how conservative Colorado has gotten, and he might want to try California or Oregon instead. LOL.

He has the wrong idea. This is NOT CONSERVATIVE PHILOSOPHY IN ACTION.

What your father needs to do is help someone who truly is a conservative Republican get elected to one of the offices held by the people who have spearheaded this movement.

None of them live in Maryland. However, we have a Democratic stealth senator retiring here next year. Thank goodness. He was one of those who couldn't be bothered to speak out and stop this in the senate.

If the senators had shown a little backbone, the bill would never have passed and we'd be having a different conversation. We could sure use another Strom Thurmond. Vile as some of his political positions were, especially early in his career, he stood up to people if he disagreed with them.

[pippadaisy[$]]

jgibson2 said

It says home. For a married woman, home is with her husband. That in no way convinces me that she was turned over to her parents. Maybe she was, but it doesn't say that. I also said it wasn't relevant to the current battle.

I should have known I'd have to give you all the relevant documents, Judy.

The part about him living with her parents can be found here:

http://www.hospicepatients.org/richa...ri-schiavo.pdf

bottom of page 6 into page 7.

Sorry... I thought it was evident with the quote "the family was overwhelmed" and not "the husband was overwhelmed."

[pippadaisy[$]]

jgibson2 said

He has the wrong idea. This is NOT CONSERVATIVE PHILOSOPHY IN ACTION.

What your father needs to do is help someone who truly is a conservative Republican get elected to one of the offices held by the people who have spearheaded this movement.

None of them live in Maryland. However, we have a Democratic stealth senator retiring here next year. Thank goodness. He was one of those who couldn't be bothered to speak out and stop this in the senate.

If the senators had shown a little backbone, the bill would never have passed and we'd be having a different conversation. We could sure use another Strom Thurmond. Vile as some of his political positions were, especially early in his career, he stood up to people if he disagreed with them.

LOL Judy. He lives in NY. We've slowly worn him down. But the likelihood of getting a nice conservative Republican voted in around here in slim and none. The city votes Democrat and still swings most of the County when it comes to big elections. The suburbs have all Republican representation.

I'd love to see my dad in a VW bus, though!

[cristina1]

Here is an op-ed piece I found interesting.

I have to agree - Congress had no right to get involved.

[erik_kosberg]

Can someone explain her father's comments about cutting off her arms and legs?

With advanced diabetes, gangrene can set in, requiring amputation (I have an uncle who’s lost three toes already, they were barely able to save his foot, at least for now). In one of the many legal rounds, Terri’s dad was questioned under oath about how far he would go. The lawyer asked about diabetes and amputation. The father said that he would have all four limbs amputated if necessary. Asked if she then had heart complications, would he authorize open heart surgery, he said Yes.

[pippadaisy[$]]

Thanks Erik. That one really had me confused.

[hadassahchana[$]]

Schiavo's lawyer basically backed the SChindlers into a corner. He asked, limb by limb, if they'd be willing to amputate if gangrene set in in that limb. After taking them through the entire body, he then asked if, after having only a torso left and that torso had heart problems which required surgery, if they'd operate on the torso. I heard the tape trascript, and no matter which way you believe about this issue, that oily lawyer was just playing those parents like a trout. Calling the woman "a torso" is a loaded and very emotional term. Times like that make me wish I believed in hell. The husband and parents have enough pain to go through without soemone like that Felos guy trying to throw fuel on the fire.


Cindy

[pippadaisy[$]]

True, but I think that the real point was that he wanted to point out that they would go to whatever lengths possible to keep her alive, no matter what her condition... that at no point would they ever say "You know what? This is more about us than what she might have wanted."

At any rate, the Court of Appeals also turned them down, and now they are petitioning the Supreme Court, who has already told them they aren't going there.

I pray I'll never be in that position with any of my children, but I'd hope at some point I'd be able to divorce my personal feelings from the equation. I'm reminded of that family who kept pulling their son out of the hospital and hauling him all over the world.. I think we talked about him in the Box back when. As hard as it is, at some point you have to let go.

[erik_kosberg]

Schiavo's lawyer basically backed the SChindlers into a corner. He asked, limb by limb, if they'd be willing to amputate if gangrene set in in that limb.

At each question, they had the opportunity to say No. They continued to say Yes.

[jgibson2[$]]

erik_kosberg said

At each question, they had the opportunity to say No. They continued to say Yes.

They wouldn't even have had to say no. All they really needed to say was "We'd have to decide that if it happened, based on what we thought was best for Terri."

OTOH, I've seen this phenomenon with parents of non-viable babies. Sometimes it's a belief that as long as there's a heartbeat, God might step in and perform a miracle. Sometimes it's the mistaken notion that we're required to sustain a heartbeat at all costs until we can't. Rarely, it's the self-centered "I just can't go on without....."

[pippadaisy[$]]

I don't necessarily think it's a conscious selfishness.

Obviously, it hinges on my feelings on this particular subject, but her husband really had a very poignant quote. He said something along the lines of "We lost Terri 15 years ago." IMHO, they did just that. They lost the person that was Terri when the brain damage first occurred, and what her parents are holding onto is a shell.

I also have a spiritual struggle with the whole thing... if a person has a soul, is it possible for the soul to be trapped? If it relates to cognitive function at all, and the cognitive function isn't there to say "You know what? This is over; let's go." does it get trapped? And if that's the case, are her parents holding her back?

I was actually discussing the other case (the Rip van Winkle-like) one with G last night, and was actually surprised at his response... we are going to need to talk about it some more. I told him I wouldn't want to be that person... to wake up 20 years later to find how much life has passed me by. People grow and change all the time.. I know that I'm not the person I was even five years ago. To wake up that way, I'd still be the same person, but everyone around me would be different. I find that thought absolutely horrifying. G didn't agree.

[theworm[$]]

I'm with you on that Pippa, but I really can understand G's view and thats fine. Thats why its so important that we make our desires known.

I am floored by just how much this case and all its ramifications are effecting me. I'm really depressed and sad about it. I discuss it mostly with people at EA - people who I really like and respect, and we have a lot of differing opinions which is great. Some of the spin off conversations have given us all a lot of food for discussion, and it's making me very sad. I think its important that we talk about it in general (not necessarily the specifics of the Schiavo situation), but it really is hard to think about, isn't it?

[frazzledspice]

I think that the parents have serious co-dependency problems. They are probably torturing themselves over whatever they might or might not have done that made her bulimic in the first place. Did they force her to eat all her vegetables? Did they tease her or humiliate her when she needed to lose a few pounds? Did they fail to get her psychological help when she began to experience this problem? Were they overly perfectionistic?

I am sure they were perfectly wonderful parents, but they are trying to make up, now, for whatever imagined deficiencies they'd ever had.

But Medicaid has 'gatekeepers' as do insurance companies. I doubt that Medicaid would amputate Schiavo's limbs to keep her alive, and I think that every religious leader would consider that an extraordinary measure.

Sometimes I wonder if the fight is really about Terry or about the hatred between Michael Schiavo and the Schindlers being played out in a battle over Terry.

[pippadaisy[$]]

Wormie, it was WEIRD. We've both had the DNR/no extreme measures/no feeding tubes conversation, and then THAT story came up and he did what I consider to be an about face! I think he has a harder time as an atheist...for him, death is final. For me, it's the next beginning. I'm not so much afraid of death as dying, if that makes any kind of sense.

Frazz, I think you are totally right. About the ED guilt as well as the bad blood between the families. The whole case is just a depressing mess, and I wonder, when it's all over, how any of them will ever be able to achieve any sort of normalcy.

[mtomm[$]]

Since I believe in a life hereafter I have concluded that there are worst things than dying. I think Terri is living one of those worse things.

[theworm[$]]

pippadaisy said

Wormie, it was WEIRD. We've both had the DNR/no extreme measures/no feeding tubes conversation, and then THAT story came up and he did what I consider to be an about face! I think he has a harder time as an atheist...for him, death is final. For me, it's the next beginning. I'm not so much afraid of death as dying, if that makes any kind of sense.

That would be weird.

I totally understand what you're saying. I'm also afraid of dying, but not of death. Dying can be scary and painful - death isn't, its just that many folks don't feel "ready" for death, and thats something we can't control.
I'm not an atheist, but I don't believe in a heaven/hell afterlife. It would be hard for me to put into words what I do believe, but for me, also, death is sort of final. That doesn't really scare me though.
I think what is upsetting me is the general discussion of very personal issues. The government shouldn't be involved in this at all. Leaving that out, all of us discussing this makes it so obvious that we all do have unique thoughts and desires, and I don't think anyone should force their views on anyone else (and I'm NOT accusing anyone here of doing that). It boils down to our views of life, death, religion, compassion, faith, hope - so many things that are intangible and personal. I know that I've said things about those topics that have shocked a few people on this board, and I've been very suprised at some of the statements by others, but there are no rights or wrongs, and what is happening now with the government and court involvement seems like it's trying to mandate a right and a wrong. There is a legal question here of who has the right to make the decision for Terry, and the family needs a resolution on that (which I think they finally have), but legislating the larger issues here really really has me concerned and upset.

[pippadaisy[$]]

ITA. And I'm very, very afraid of what some of these legislators are going to attempt to do when the Supreme Court comes back with their decision.