Sort of Grammar Question

[Redlass]

I've noticed that many people have taken to lowercasing God's name even when it is used in a grammatical structure that would make it uppercase.

It seems to be that if someone doesn't believe in the existance of God as defined by whomever, then they lowercase His name. Now, I understand lowercasing the personal pronoun. That becomes a statement about divinity or not. However, "God" is the name used to refer to a specific individual. You still capitalize S.S. Enterprise, even when you don't believe it is anything other than fiction. It's the rules of English grammar--we capitalize proper nouns.

What am I missing here? Is this one of those cases where politics supercedes grammar? (I know when I write for the military, politics constantly supercedes grammar and I have to capitalize all sorts of nouns that aren't proper.)

[wivabef]

Redlass said

I've noticed that many people have taken to lowercasing God's name even when it is used in a grammatical structure that would make it uppercase.

It seems to be that if someone doesn't believe in the existance of God as defined by whomever, then they lowercase His name. Now, I understand lowercasing the personal pronoun. That becomes a statement about divinity or not. However, "God" is the name used to refer to a specific individual. You still capitalize S.S. Enterprise, even when you don't believe it is anything other than fiction. It's the rules of English grammar--we capitalize proper nouns.

What am I missing here? Is this one of those cases where politics supercedes grammar? (I know when I write for the military, politics constantly supercedes grammar and I have to capitalize all sorts of nouns that aren't proper.)

well i know that alot of people don't bother with caps at all when writing on-line, bridgette. could it be this?

[Redlass]

*grin*

In cases where other proper nouns aren't capitalized, I would agree that that is the case. Where it sticks out to me is when other proper nouns ARE being capitalized.

It struck me as being a choice (as opposed to being sloppy grammar--which I think all of us do in online communications; I certainly do), but I'm willing to be corrected if it is otherwise.

[theworm[$]]

People who view G-d as "a specific individual" are probably more apt to capitalize. People who don't have religious views or who don't view G-d as "an individual" may not capitalize because their thoughs process is different.

[cristina1]

It depends on how it is used. Sometimes people refer to "a god" (which isn't a proper noun.) I do quite often.

[amykhar]

I think some people just aren't certain about when it should be capitalized. In fact, somebody at the paper asked me last night if it should be...

[Prepoia[$]]

I agree. Even if you don't believe in God, it can be considered an entity that requires capitalization. A god, is different than God.

Sandy
Who had to go back and capitalize the last God because I lazily didn't capitalize it.

[drmomentum[$]]

I am not at all consistent about whether I capitalize "god" -- I go either way for no particular reason that I can say for certain.

If I were writing an essay, I think I would capitlize it. But I don't think of God as a proper noun because I don't think of God as being an actual entity which exists. So my subconscious is probably at work when I'm typing fast.

-JP

[phoenixx]

Not being an "individual", god would not be capitalized. Neither would "a god" or "gods". IMO a supposed omnipotent presence is very different from both a spaceship (fictional or not) and an individual entity in the way I think of it. Doesn't have anything to do with belief I don't think.

Now, that said, my parents take the bible LITERALLY - so since it is both stated that god is an individual there and capitalized as well, they would capitalize it.

I'm curious why you ask. Do you find it bothersome when you see it written in lower case on an intellectual level? Or perhaps on a spiritual level?

[nicholmere]

I tend to use lowercase for the word god, but I would use the uppercase for the name Jesus.

[drmomentum[$]]

Now that I think more about it, there is more complexity to the context than what I considered before. So if I were writing an essay I might capitalize God, but I might not.

"Do you believe in God" and "Do you believe in god" probably mean slightly differnt things.

If I capitalize God, I am either making a statement that I believe in an entity named "God" or I am acknowledging that we are talking about an entity that you believe exists who is named "God." Specifically, that named entity.

But "god" can also be considered a concept. Not in the "a god" sense, even more general than that.

If I were to say, "my God is better than your God," does it make sense to capitalize them both? It does not seem so, because the idea of a capitalized "God" would seem to preclude the concept of multiple "Gods."

So maybe there is only a small subset of the time when I should capitalize "god."

Still thinking...

-JP

[erik_kosberg]

God/god really isn’t much of a name. Yahweh — now there’s a name that would look wrong in lowercase.

[Redlass]

It does bother me when I see it, though I'd have to think about why.

It also bothers me when I see a sentence like, "I talked to mom about the casserole." because Mom should be capitalized in that instance.

(Keep in mind that I'm an editor for a living, so things bother me that probably shouldn't otherwise.)

I've never thought that the actual existence or non-existence of a being was relevant to whether it was a proper noun. What would matter is whether it is a descriptive title or the name of the actual entity/person/being.

That said, I often read things into a statement when God is uppercase or lowercase--whether or not I'm intended to. While I am not claiming that anyone intends the following, I will say that what I feel when I see the lowercase is that someone is saying, "I'm going to break standard conventions/rules of communication in an attempt to emphasize that I don't believe in God and belittle the belief that God is real."

"Belittle" is too strong of a word. I'm struggling to find the exact word I mean.

[nicholmere]

Here is an interesting take on the G vs g:
To capitalize or not to Capitalize

[rmthunter]

If I'm referring specifically to "God" as meaning Jehovah, I'll capitalize it. If I'm referring to "god" or the "gods" without the specific reference, lower case.

I suppose, if I were making statements like "the Christian god," I wouldn't capitalize it on the same basis that one does not capitalize "mom" in a statment like "His mom said so." I do it when I am using it specifically as a name.

Simliarly, I don't capitalize "the gods," although I would capitalize "Cernunnos." (Not exactly parallel, since Cernunnos is without doubt a proper name -- there isn't a general category known as "cernunnoses."

Thanks for the link, nicholmere -- vindicated, and I was writing while you were posting.

[nicholmere]

Redlass said

While I am not claiming that anyone intends the following, I will say that what I feel when I see the lowercase is that someone is saying, "I'm going to break standard conventions/rules of communication in an attempt to emphasize that I don't believe in God and belittle the belief that God is real."

Sorry ((Bridgette)) I do not share your beliefs, but I certainly do not intend to make you feel I am belittling them or you.

I suppose one way to think of it would be to reverse the scenario, something along the lines of ...

While I am not claiming that anyone intends the following, I will say that what I feel when I see the uppercase is that someone is saying, "I'm going to break standard conventions/rules of communication in an attempt to emphasize that I believe in God and belittle the belief that God is not real."

For those who capitalzie the word, but do not use the middle letter 'o', are they implying that those who type the 'o' are not as respectful/religious/faithful... as those who do not type the 'o'? My assumption is "of course not", but they are still spelling the word differently. Actually I suppose G-d is not really a word in a grammatical sense.

[drmomentum[$]]

If it's bothering people, I'll try to be more consistent and purposeful about it.

I think I'd agree with that About.com link.

But one thing that article sidesteps is what to do if we're talking about shared concepts of a god. I don't think you can assume that the Christian god is the same as the Muslim one. So, when you are talking about "combined god" in the abstract, isn't that a lowercase "g?"

Maybe whenever we I talk about "God" I should: a) Be more specific about which god. and b) Ask people which god they are talking about.

Whereas in the past, I've been willy-nilly about it, you can ask me in the future what it means when I capitalize the word or not. I'll try to have a reason.

-JP

[Redlass]

Interesting article in About.com--especially since the one paragraph about theists pretty accurately described how I do feel about it. (I'm emphasizing "feel" because I wish to purposely set it aside from a rational belief--I'm not claiming it is rational. However, by having a rational discussion about it, it is likely to have an effect on how I feel about it in the future.)

It's an interesting turnabout, Katherine, because while I recognize that uppercasing the personal pronoun is not following the strict rules of grammar, I do it anyway. Part of it has to do with that's how I was taught, the other has to do with respect.

Perhaps another part of the issue is that I don't typically think in general or conceptual terms when I'm thinking of God. It's typically very specific. I might talk about not making things other than God into god. I might say "You're a god" or "you're a goddess." and use it as a concept, but if I'm talking about whether God should be in the classroom or a phrase such as "under God" (and yeah, it was that thread that got me thinking about this--I kept having to stifle my emotional reaction when reading threads and discipline my mind to stay on topic and not get distracted with it), I'm thinking of a very specific entity.

And I would capitalize God when referring to specific gods other than my own, regardless of whether I think they are real or not. But yes, the difficulty comes in that the name is the same as the concept/descriptive title.

(As a side note, I would actually say that Muslims and I worship the same God--we just describe Him differently.)

[rmthunter]

I'm sticking with the straight grammatical thing here.

Any god you want to name is potentially part of my pantheon, so unless I'm using an actual name, or the word "God" as a substitute for that name (and there are instances in which I would say "the God"), it gets a lowercase "g."

[drmomentum[$]]

That's interesting, too.

Removing the "o" is, if I understand it correctly, avoiding spelling out the name of the deity. However, this non-name is still capitalized... but doesn't capitalization imply that it is still a name? Should it be "g-d," to reaffirm that you are not using it as a name? Or, is it capitalized just to make it clear what you are intending to say?

Even more confusing, because the capitalization and the "-" seem to be at cross-purposes.

In the final analysis, maybe one can read too much into all this.

[emeleel]

Wormie or Cindy can explain it better if they feel like stepping in, but as they explained it to me - when I first asked about it here at EA - is that Jews do not believe in writing down God's full name on something that might get thrown away. Even though this is the net, those who feel strongly enough about it prefer to remove the middle letter just in case something they write gets printed out and then thrown away. It's taking the respect one step further; capitalization because it's a name, removal of the middle letter to prevent casual treatment of the full, holy name.