Tookie Williams

[pippadaisy[$]]

Schwarzenegger denied clemency.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/williams_...NlYwMlJVRPUCUl

I figured I'd just start it out in here rather than have to move it later.

[lynnzop[$]]

Bye bye.

I guess that's about all I need to say on that subject, eh?

[poseidon]

I think it is a good move. This guy caused a lot more than just four deaths. He was simply convicted of them. He then continued to brag afterwards about how many people he killed or ordered killed.

Just because the guy writes childrens' books doesn't negate the horrible things he's done and all the damage to innocent people. If someone is feeling pity for Mr. Williams, perhaps it might be best to go back and simply look at the murders he was convicted for -- they're pretty terrible and gruesome.

[erik_kosberg]

You're either in favor of the death penalty or against it. Not much to really debate here, we've been over it all before.

I think I'll go have a cup of tea.

[brian_igo]

erik_kosberg said

You're either in favor of the death penalty or against it. Not much to really debate here, we've been over it all before.

I think I'll go have a cup of tea.

Not really. I lived in a bad, major city neighborhood during the height of the Crips/Bloods/Boyz n the Hood insanity of the early 90's. People were killed in drive by shootings on the streets where I lived and on a couple of occasions into my apartment building. A small park three blocks away was the site of more than two dozen murders in one year, every one drug and gang related. I've heard the sound of machine gun fire while I was trying to get to sleep. And I remember seeing the murder of people south of the Maricopa freeway relegated to deep inside the Republic day after day.

Tookie Williams wasn't directly involved in any of those crimes. But I consider him as much a participant as Hitler was to the Holocaust.

I oppose the death penalty as a rule. Tookie Williams is my exception. Good riddance to bad trash.




Brian

[mjfrombuffalo[$]]

I find it sad that so many are convinced that people can't change, repent, make attempts to redeem themselves, etc.

[lynnzop[$]]

MJ, I believe that people can change, repent, be a better person after sitting in a cell for years thinking about what they've done. It's the ultimate "time out".

But this man took the lives of 4 people, and helped create a culture that promotes death, destruction and mayhem. He can't undo that. He can't give back a mother to children who have to grow up without her love and devotion. I know you and I are on polar sides when it comes to this issue, but I can't find forgiveness for someone responsible for such horrific acts. He didn't give those four people (and countless others) the opportunity to change, repent, be a better person. He took away that, and any other opportunity there was for them.

Yes, I support the death penalty, but I don't think it's the right punishment for every crime. In cases like this one, I do.

[emeleel]

But is that all it is about? What about paying for your crimes? Repentance and change are wonderful, but is it really justice to let someone off even with life in prison? I think this guy really did change his life, but that doesn't change the facts of what he did.

[poseidon]

mjfrombuffalo said

I find it sad that so many are convinced that people can't change, repent, make attempts to redeem themselves, etc.

I do believe that people can change, repent and make attempts to redeem themselves. However, that doesn't negate what he has done in his past. Family members of his victims are free to forgive the guy for what he did (and, from almost all accounts that I've read, they've not).

As a society, we have to weigh what the guy did in the first place and why he did it. Again, the murders were very gruesome and the justifications for them were very racist.

As far as repentence goes, when you scream that you're innocent, that's not exactly showing remorse for what you did.

The guy wrote a couple of books in prison telling kids that gangs were not good. Meanwhile, the guy was the co-founder of one of the scariest and most violent groups in this nation's history. I think Brian hit the nail right on the head -- if, after exterminating 6 million Jews, Hitler had said being a Nazi was bad, and that people shouldn't join the Nazi party, do you see that as repentence and forgive him of his crimes?

Frankly, I think lethal injection was a bit too kind for Tookie. But, his immediate future is in God's hands now.

[poseidon]

lynnzop said

Yes, I support the death penalty, but I don't think it's the right punishment for every crime. In cases like this one, I do.

On that, we 100% agree. I believe the death penalty should be reserved for exclusive cases. Tookie's crimes most certainly earned him his punishment.

[pippadaisy[$]]

I guess my biggest problem with it is that (IMHO) we have put ourselves above a higher power in determining what repentance means. He wasn't an old man when he founded the Crips. He was young. And stupid. What bothers me most about this case is that by executing him it says that there isn't much you can do to atone for past sins. If his books encouraged even ONE child to not follow in his footsteps, that doesn't help to negate things? What if it's 10? or 20?

[poseidon]

pippadaisy said

If his books encouraged even ONE child to not follow in his footsteps, that doesn't help to negate things? What if it's 10? or 20?

No. It doesn't. Put yourself in the shoes of any of the family members of his victims, then ask yourself that same question.

Your loved one was killed simply because he or she got in the way of Tookie Williams. They didn't put up any fight. They did exactly what he asked them to do. Then, as payment for compliance, your loved one had her face erased via a close-range blast from a shotgun.

After being convicted and sentenced to death, Tookie brags about how your loved one was simply some piece of garbage, one of dozens and dozens of pieces of garbage, that got in his way. Heck, Tookie can't even remember how many pieces of garbage, just like your loved one, he either executed or ordered executed.

But, later down the road, he decided to write a book telling kids that getting into a gang was a bad decision. Then he wrote another book.

You're the family member of one of his victims. Tookie is granted clemency. You're being told that your loved one is not as important as Tookie, because Tookie is a changed guy. As a society, we feel badly that your loved one was brutally murdered. But, we are going to show compassion for this guy, because he wrote a book that might have encouraged a few kids to not join a gang.

Oh yeah, let's not forget all of the people who are dead as a result of Tookie's past actions (I mean all of them)... but Tookie wrote some books that might have done some good.

What are we saying as a society?

We're saying that there are some things that cross the line and are unforgiveable. Doing good things beyond that is between God and the individual. As a society, we're responsible for doling out appropriate punishment.

[pippadaisy[$]]

It isn't as if he was going to be set free; they would have commuted his sentence to life without parole.

There are families here in my city who have lost more than one child to gang violence. If your first chid was killed, but a second was spared because someone didn't join a gang, then yes. I wonder if any of those mothers who've lost more than one child was asked the same question how she would answer.

[realtraveller]

Tookie asked for clemency claiming he'd had a conversion and been redeemed.

But his actions spoke louder than his words. A redeemed person would have

a) apologized to the victim's families

b) helped the police clear up hundreds of Crips related crimes. Oddly enough, if he had agreed to provide evidence against other Crips members, he might have bought himself more time. But to Tookie helping the police and the community was worse than dying.

He didn't even use the worldwide media attention he got last night to make a statement against gangs or to warn young men not to get involved in crime.

The books (written by someone else) were just a ploy to try and avoid the death penalty.

[eris esoteric]

I'm really neither for nor against the death penalty per se. I will say that I can usually understand both parties points of view. In this case, I really don't have an opinion either way. Personally I'm for Heinlein's Coventry model... find a bare plot of land that has sustainable resources but which it is impossible to escape from, dump all your ne'er-do-wells there, and let them deal with each other. Or not. As they choose.

However, these two lines jumped out at me in your post, Jeff.

poseidon said

You're being told that your loved one is not as important as Tookie, because Tookie is a changed guy.

I really don't see the hypothetical (and now moot) point that clemancy means the state sees your loved ones as less important than Tookie. The state didn't directly kill your loved ones (I'll leave out ranting about the idiocy of modern day Prohibition, it's mostly irrelevant here.) Killing Tookie won't bring the loved ones back. So how is the state indicating that Tookie is more important than the victims?

poseidon said

As a society, we're responsible for doling out appropriate punishment.

I *do* have to disagree with this point. Punishment is pointless. Revenge is pointless. All you're left with is one more body. Society is responsible for protecting itself. If you remove Tookie from society, society's interests are served. Anything more is simply grand-standing.

[brian_igo]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I see a clear distinction between the crimes Williams committed and the anti-gang work he did from death row.

The eternal optomist in me would love to see Williams anti-gang books become his strongest legacy. I would like to think these works will continue to reach at-risk youth and prevent others from following his path. But that doesn't negate his responsibility for the murders he committed.

I also have a hard time buying the arguement that he was young when he founded the Crips. We're not talking about a thirteen year-old or even a first-time offender who got scared during a holdup and shot someone. By the time he was sentenced to die he was 26 and had founded one of the most unrepentantly violent criminal organizations in American history. He knew exactly what he was doing.

[pippadaisy[$]]

The insurance companies would disagree with you, Brian, since car insurance rates are higher for males under 25.

I'm not saying that he isn't responsible. I don't think he should have been set free. But what is accomplished by his execution? If he had his sentence commuted to life without parole, and had done more to discourage youths from joining gangs, wouldn't that have done more for society than executing him?

[realtraveller]

I wonder why Hollywood types took up the case of Tookie Williams as a cause celebre?

I would have thought they'd want to disassociate themselves from a racist who laughed about murdering three Asians and called them "Buddhaheads".

A KFI radio reporter who asked Jesse Jackson if he knew the names of Tookie's victims, had his microphone broken by one of the 'peaceful' protesters. (Jackson didn't know their names).

We won't see Mike Farrell and Ed Asner holding candles for David Westerfield, the child molester who killed Danielle Van Dam in San Diego or for Scott Peterson or even for the old guy who is due to be executed next month.

[realtraveller]

I wonder why Hollywood types took up the case of Tookie Williams as a cause celebre?

I would have thought they'd want to disassociate themselves from a racist who laughed about murdering three Asians and called them "Buddhaheads".

A KFI radio reporter who asked Jesse Jackson if he knew the names of Tookie's victims, had his microphone broken by one of the 'peaceful' protesters. (Jackson didn't know their names).

We won't see Mike Farrell and Ed Asner holding candles for David Westerfield, the child molester who killed Danielle Van Dam in San Diego or for Scott Peterson or even for the old guy who is due to be executed next month.

[poseidon]

pippadaisy said

But what is accomplished by his execution? If he had his sentence commuted to life without parole, and had done more to discourage youths from joining gangs, wouldn't that have done more for society than executing him?

Again, I think this is society demonstrating (and I'll politely disagree with Eris) that sometimes you have to pay the ultimate price for your actions, and that no amount of redemption will save you from having punishment/justice served. If his conversion is real, that's between him and God.

[poseidon]

realtraveller said

We won't see Mike Farrell and Ed Asner holding candles for David Westerfield, the child molester who killed Danielle Van Dam in San Diego or for Scott Peterson or even for the old guy who is due to be executed next month.

When David Westerfield or Scott Peterson are labelled oppressed minorities who were just victims of society, you'll see that. Until that happens, you won't.

[pippadaisy[$]]

poseidon said

Again, I think this is society demonstrating (and I'll politely disagree with Eris) that sometimes you have to pay the ultimate price for your actions, and that no amount of redemption will save you from having punishment/justice served. If his conversion is real, that's between him and God.

Okay, so I'm still confused. Then the point isn't having anything good as a result of the execution. And then, if the conversion WAS real, and your God's judgment is different from that of the humans who were involved in the execution (from the jury to the judges to the governator), then what punishment is there for them? Or should society's judgment be harsher than a higher power's?