When does a term become offensive or okay to use?

poseidon · #1 01-07-2006, 12:49 PM

Quote:

rmthunter said

What if they hate fags?

I was going to respond in another thread, but thought I'd start a new one, especially since we seem to be "big" on offensive terminology these days. I'm going to get graphic here... and for this I apologize...

My guess is that if I called Bob a fag, he'd be less than thrilled about it. But, it seems that, since he's gay, it is perfectly okay for him to use the term. Other terms like dyke seem to be okay to use if you're part of the gay lifestyle but are frowned upon if you're not. Why is it okay for you to use it if you're likely going to be offended if I use it?

Why is it okay for a black to refer to someone else as nigger (or niggah) but if I were to use the same term, I could count on serious physical harm being inflicted upon myself?

I don't see Jews calling other Jews kikes or hebes. I think that would elicit more anger than you could ever imagine. I'd want to really lay into someone if they used those terms around me.

I wouldn't, in the normal course of conversation, use any of these terms. In fact, the only reason that I ever would is for a conversation just as this.

**drmomentum**[$] · #2 01-07-2006, 01:12 PM

I think that the way he was using it, he was expressing the emotion of the "what if" person in question.

-JP

**AuntieEmma**[$] · #3 01-07-2006, 02:04 PM

Quote:

I don't see Jews calling other Jews kikes or hebes. I think that would elicit more anger than you could ever imagine.

Though some of us are into Jewish princess and Jewish mother jokes, when told amongst ourselves -- the same kinds of jokes that would be offensive, if told by a non-Jew.

**amykhar** · #4 01-07-2006, 02:09 PM

I think it's always ok for members of a group to play on the stereotypes or weaknesses of its own group, but it's not ok for outsiders to do so. We see the same thing in siblings all the time. It's ok for Kareem to call his sister a brat in his mind, but let anybody else pick on her and he rises up as brother-protector in a heart-beat.

I think it's part of the culture of group belonging. If you're in, you're in. If you're out, don't go there.

**AuntieEmma**[$] · #5 01-07-2006, 02:31 PM

Quote:

I don't see Jews calling other Jews kikes or hebes. I think that would elicit more anger than you could ever imagine. I'd want to really lay into someone if they used those terms around me.

I wanted to add that I just remembered that there is a magazine by/for Jews called "Heeb." It seems to be aimed at a young, hip audience:

http://www.heebmagazine.com/

**amykhar** · #6 01-07-2006, 02:35 PM

ok. So, we've now established that Jeff was wrong about one point in his post. But, what do you think about the premise of the conversation?

**AuntieEmma**[$] · #7 01-07-2006, 02:44 PM

Quote:

ok. So, we've now established that Jeff was wrong about one point in his post. But, what do you think about the premise of the conversation?

I think what's Jeff is describing is something that's common enough to have a name -- it's called "reclaiming." People within a group use words that have been used against them as insults in order to "reclaim" them. It's a form of pride. It's a way of saying "F--k you, bigots, you can't hurt me with your words."

It also seems to be something more readily embraced, at least at first, by the young rather than the middle-aged or older. I remember when gays first started using the word "queer" to describe themselves. At the time, it was very controversial, and it was something that was done mostly by younger people. Many middle-aged gays were highly offended when ANYONE used the word, not matter what their intent. Now, years later, it's become much more mainstream. To my mind, that shows that the reclaiming effort was a success -- the sting has been largely eliminated from a word that used to have a lot of power to wound.

**AuntieEmma**[$] · #8 01-07-2006, 02:58 PM

P.S. I agree with JP -- I think Bob meant it as a "what if" -- what if the bigots were to think/say that. So that's actually different from the phenomenon that Jeff was describing in the body of his post -- and the "reclaiming" I was talking about above referred to what was described in the body of Jeff's post, not to the quote from Bob that led it off.

**AuntieEmma**[$] · #9 01-07-2006, 03:12 PM

Here's a good article (what I call "reclaiming," they call "flipping") --

http://www2.sjsu.edu/depts/linguisti...fchronicle.htm

Redlass · #10 01-07-2006, 03:51 PM

I don't think it is ever an all-or-nothing thing with any given word. It would be convenient and simple if it were, but I don't think it is.

Rather, I think each word must be evaluated for each given situation. Sometimes a word is appropriate, sometimes it isn't. It's when we try to give blanket proscriptions or permissions that we stray over into insensitivity or the absurd spectrum of political correctness (mind, I approve of most political correctness--I don't think all of it is negated because of the absurd extremes).

realtraveller · #11 01-07-2006, 06:18 PM

I think that if a word is used as an epithet (name-calling) it's bad, no matter what group is using it.

We ought all to get away from all forms of name-calling, cursing and ridiculous comparisons (so and so is "hitler, for example.)

anderclayton · #12 01-07-2006, 08:21 PM

Hmm.

Personally I find the term "WASP" to be more than mildly offensive. This started when I was harangued at length for being a wasp online after making an innocent offhand comment on a trivia game. Really I'm not even a fan of the term when people identifying with the term use it for themselves.

Ander

**drmomentum**[$] · #13 01-07-2006, 08:37 PM

How about "Preppie."

Or "Yuppie."

rmthunter · #14 01-07-2006, 09:39 PM

Since it was one of my more colorful outbursts that started this whole thing, I should probably put in my two cents' worth.

Quote:

poseidon said

I was going to respond in another thread, but thought I'd start a new one, especially since we seem to be "big" on offensive terminology these days. I'm going to get graphic here... and for this I apologize...

My guess is that if I called Bob a fag, he'd be less than thrilled about it. But, it seems that, since he's gay, it is perfectly okay for him to use the term. Other terms like dyke seem to be okay to use if you're part of the gay lifestyle but are frowned upon if you're not. Why is it okay for you to use it if you're likely going to be offended if I use it?

It's OK for me to use "fag" because I are one. It's an in-your-face political stance directed at everyone who is not one. The same holds true of other groups, hence it is not OK for you to call someone a "nigger," while it is perfectly OK for an African American to call another African American one in a particular social context.

Quote:

I don't see Jews calling other Jews kikes or hebes. I think that would elicit more anger than you could ever imagine. I'd want to really lay into someone if they used those terms around me.

I think there may be a time element involved here -- call it an historical progression. Prejudice against Jews, while it still exists, is nowhere near as overt or pervasive or in most cases as recent, in general, as prejudice against Blacks and Gays (since we're capitalizing in this paragraph). It's also possible that, since reclaiming actually didn't start, as far as I know, until the Civil Rights movement, there is a different historical context -- reclaiming, at the time when anti-Jewish prejudice was most apparent, was not a strategy. There's also the fact that Jews tend to be middle class, and when Blacks started reclaiming "nigger," most of them weren't. Middle-class people don't say things like that. Lower class people, perhaps, are more likely to because that's one of the few means of empowerment they have. In the case of gays reclaiming "queer," we've borrowed a lot of strategies from the Black Civil Rights movement. That's one of them.

It's worh pointing out that the use of words considered pejorative by straights against gays, for example, has dropped markedly in my lifetime (except among certain incorrigible elements). That's not to say that they won't use it amongst themselves, but they won't let me hear it. Not twice, anyway.

Quote:

I wouldn't, in the normal course of conversation, use any of these terms. In fact, the only reason that I ever would is for a conversation just as this.

I would and do use various of the anti-gay terms in normal conversation with other gay men or with very close straight friends, and that is a key point. They are not something I use outside of that context unless I am making a particular point, as in the quote that Jeff used. I should point out that even in that context, terms like "fag" and "queen" are not particularly complimentary. It's a very complex and probably slightly schizophrenic phenomenon -- on the one hand, we throw those terms in the faces of those who use them against us by reclaiming them to one degree or another, but we also use them against each other. It's survival, by whatever means necessary.

PS -- yes, I did mean it as a reflection of the mindset of the theoretical person who hates gays.

**drmomentum**[$] · #15 01-08-2006, 01:58 PM

BTW - At various times in my life, I have been called different things, as we may all have been. And many times, the attacks have been unfounded. Let's say, just for example, someone were to call me "amateurish" (I don't recall ever being called this, but it's just an example).

If someone were to call me amateurish in my profesisonal work, I would certainly consider that offensive. Since I tend to have ironic reactions to offensive attacks, I might go around for days sayign things like "would you like me to do some amateurish work on X?" "Here's my amateurish weekly report." "I can't wait to amateurishly handle that issue."

It's a way of saying "I have so little respect for your attack that I will repeat it over and over again so the ridiculousness of it will be obvious."

Jeff should understand the phenomenon, as he has used it himself quite a number of times on this very board.

The dynamic is slightly different when it's not a baseless attack, but an offensive slang term meant to harm that way. But only slightly. You can only take control of words if you use them. You exert power over words by using them.

This is part of why I believe people should act like they have power over words, rather than the reverse. Words don't hurt people -- people hurt people.

-JP

**amykhar** · #16 01-08-2006, 02:02 PM

During my random surfing of the web, I found this:

Quote:

The fish trap exists because of the fish. Once you've gotten the fish you can forget the trap. The rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit. Once you've gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words exist because of meaning. Once you've gotten the meaning, you can forget the words. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words so I can talk with him? ~Chuang Tzu

**AuntieEmma**[$] · #17 01-08-2006, 03:50 PM

Quote:

The fish trap exists because of the fish. Once you've gotten the fish you can forget the trap. The rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit. Once you've gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words exist because of meaning. Once you've gotten the meaning, you can forget the words. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words so I can talk with him?

I'm too verbal to ever think of that as an ideal.

**drmomentum**[$] · #18 01-08-2006, 10:28 PM

It's right. Words are a tool, until they become an impediment.

Redlass · #19 01-08-2006, 11:30 PM

Actually, I'd rather hate to get rid of all name-calling. My friends and I call each other names all the time. But that's part of friendship--we love each other and we know our name-calling for what it is. If we actually ever offended each other, we'd be quick as we could to apologize.

Then again, perhaps there are groups of friends who don't consider "provoke" to be an enjoyable pasttime.

**drmomentum**[$] · #20 01-09-2006, 12:26 AM

My best friend in college and I uset to have fun trying to out name-call each other.

Eventually we got bored with it, but it got pretty creative. Some people didn't get it, and were worried.

-JP

wivabef · #21 01-11-2006, 12:01 AM

Quote:

drmomentum said

My best friend in college and I uset to have fun trying to out name-call each other.

Eventually we got bored with it, but it got pretty creative. Some people didn't get it, and were worried.

-JP

OMG!

My friends and I used to to do that, too.

Skag! Slut! Whore!

The best we got down to was calling one friend "The fourth sex"

I don't think we really knew what it meant, but it seemed oddly demeaning.

After a quart of heffenreffer, most things are.