Muslim Dress Debate

[realtraveller]

An interesting article about the conflicts raised by Muslim women's dress and modesty rules.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...-modesty_x.htm

The article gives three examples.

In the first the gym accomodated the Muslim women by walling off the aerobics area. Fair, it's a private gym, they should be able to do what they want to accomodate their customers. Or the women could join and all female gym.

But public schools and public swimming pools cannot discriminate. The Muslim women want to play basketball against public school teams but men and boys must be kept out. You can't accomodate by discriminating against men. Fathers and brothers want to see their sisters and daughters play basketball.

And setting aside separate swim times in a public pool for Muslim women. No.
Public pools cannot discriminate for or against someone on the basis of religion. Again, join a private club with a swimming pool or go to a private home with a pool. Public pools have to be open for all.

[Joubert[$]]

Good article. And .... wait for it.... I agree. I mean, with you.

Seriously, you said it well. Here's a fun debate for the gang to play with though (with no disrespect to any Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Pagans, Atheists, Agnostics or Budweiser drinkers)

What if you are the headmaster or headmistress of an exclusive private school. Tuition runs, I dunno, ten grand a year. A Muslim parent makes a similar request on their daughter's behalf. How would you handle the situation?

[slick4591[$]]

Joubert said

What if you are the headmaster or headmistress of an exclusive private school. Tuition runs, I dunno, ten grand a year. A Muslim parent makes a similar request on their daughter's behalf. How would you handle the situation?

Show them brochures of other schools.

[realtraveller]

The rules for a private school should be all spelled out in the contract/tuition agreement and known BEFORE anyone signs up for the school. If the girl agreed to rules when she signed up, that's it. And if the school and the student can't come to any agreement, there are other private schools.

It's hard to believe that a Muslim girl would really think that the other girls fathers and brothers or boyfriends or a male coach would be barred from watching a basketball game because she wanted it.

[eris esoteric]

realtraveller said

It's hard to believe that a Muslim girl would really think that the other girls fathers and brothers or boyfriends or a male coach would be barred from watching a basketball game because she wanted it.

I don't think it's necessarily anything so whimsical as "she wanted it". While I agree that in practical terms, it is unlikely that she can be accomodated, I don't think much is gained from trivializing her religious beliefs.

[Joubert[$]]

So the religious accomodation should be spelled out beforehand? Okay, I'll buy that. If the parents were paying a big tuition, there are other parents, and you, would hate to lose that revenue, but you would. And we won't extend the hypothetical to the family's donation actually buying the gym.

You have to remember I was a student at AU the year that Khashoggi tried to give them a donation to fund the school without a gym if it were named for him. Rumors were that he released the school from its obligation. The real story was the school was 20% Jewish, and the parent population wasn't going to sit still for a gym named after a Saudi.

[amykhar]

I'm all for asking for something if you want it. The worst they can do is say no, right?

Regarding the basketball games, I think it's a fair request to make another team. Would they be willing to play a game in an all-female environment? Yes? Cool, let's play. No? Ok. Thanks for considering it

Setting aside an hour or so for each gender to have private time in a pool could be something that all religions could enjoy. Wouldn't it relieve some of the stress of being out in a swim suit?

I don't begrudge the women for asking if accomodations can be made. As long as it doesn't become a law suit issue with accomodations being required, I think it's a good business tactic for areas that have large concentrations of Islamic women.

[pippadaisy[$]]

And I do have to point out that our gym has designated hours for "family swim" to keep rugrats segregated from the DINKS and old folks.

[realtraveller]

Remember when women sports writers protested that they were banned from the locker rooms? They were being discriminated on their jobs on the basis of sex. Isn't it the same thing to ban the male lifeguards from women's swim time?

[amykhar]

Not if hours are available during the other times or if there are other duties they could do during that time.

[realtraveller]

At my kids school, gym is co-ed. And the gym teachers are men and women. Gym is also mandatory. Two years are required in order to graduate from high school.

I wonder what a school would do with a Muslim girl in that situation. She couldn't dress for gym. She would be in a coed class with perhaps a male teacher. And P. E. is a required class.

[amykhar]

Generally, in those cases, they have an alternate, more modest gym uniform. I've seen the situation arise. Changing rooms are not co-ed and it doesn't create a problem.

Also, it's not a problem for most young Muslim girls. It's only past the age of puberty that it becomes an issue.

[realtraveller]

amykhar said

Generally, in those cases, they have an alternate, more modest gym uniform. I've seen the situation arise. Changing rooms are not co-ed and it doesn't create a problem.

Also, it's not a problem for most young Muslim girls. It's only past the age of puberty that it becomes an issue.

Most high school girls are past puberty.

The P. E. dress thing is one of the main reasons that the Amish have their own private school system.

[amykhar]

you didn't specify high school

[pippadaisy[$]]

OMG...co-ed gym???

I'm glad I went to an all-girl high school then. *I* wouldn't like that one bit.

[theworm[$]]

coed gym. Great when you have swimming class.

[realtraveller]

No swimming class at our school. But all sports in P. E. class are co-ed. Not really a problem except some of the boys don't like being shown up by the girls in sports.

And actually the way some of the girls dress, the gym outfit with its big T-shirt and baggy, long shorts is waaay more modest than what they wear to class.

[cristina1]

And setting aside separate swim times in a public pool for Muslim women. No.
Public pools cannot discriminate for or against someone on the basis of religion. Again, join a private club with a swimming pool or go to a private home with a pool. Public pools have to be open for all.

Why is it ok for adults to want a time to swim without children, but it isn't ok for women to want to swim without men?

A municipailty needs to do what it sees fit. If enough people want a change, generally, they will get it, regardless if it is privately owned or public.

As for playing basketball, if the school district okays it, what's the big deal if the dads miss that one game?

[amykhar]

And setting aside separate swim times in a public pool for Muslim women. No.
Public pools cannot discriminate for or against someone on the basis of religion. Again, join a private club with a swimming pool or go to a private home with a pool. Public pools have to be open for all.

It doesn't have to be 'Muslim women'. Just women. They don't care if non-Muslim women see them.

[realtraveller]

cristina1 said

Why is it ok for adults to want a time to swim without children, but it isn't ok for women to want to swim without men?

A municipailty needs to do what it sees fit. If enough people want a change, generally, they will get it, regardless if it is privately owned or public.

As for playing basketball, if the school district okays it, what's the big deal if the dads miss that one game?

The big issue which overlays this topic (and other religion in the public arena topics) is: how much of my liberty am I willing to give up so someone else can practice her religion? Why should fathers be asked to give up their liberty to attend their daughters basketball games? Or the desire of the other girls to have their dads at the game? What if the basketball coach is a guy? Should the other girls play without direction from their coach?

[cristina1]

The Article said

• In Bridgeview, Ill., a Muslim school says it wants its girls' basketball team to play road games against non-Muslim schools provided the public schools ban men and teenage boys from the game.

It's a mere request. No one is being forced to comply. If a school decides to participate, any individual player can choose not to play if she has issues with this. I don't see where asking for a favor is infringing on anyone else's civil liberties.

[amykhar]

I'm with Cristina on that one. It was a request. Not only the individual girls could opt out, but the entire team could choose not to play a game against the Muslim school.

As I said before, the worst thing the other team can do is say no.