Code Pink demonstrates against Marines in "the belly of the beast" - Page 2

erik_kosberg · #41 10-15-2007, 02:16 PM

Well, looks like it's less of an issue than I thought. ROTC is at Columbia.

**jgibson2**[$] · #42 10-15-2007, 03:06 PM

Quote:

erik_kosberg said

Well, looks like it's less of an issue than I thought. ROTC is at Columbia.

Maybe they figured out that the best way to have some influence in military matters is to educate some of their officers.

erik_kosberg · #43 10-15-2007, 03:47 PM

BTW, ROTC is at Yale and Harvard students can cross register at MIT. As far as I can tell, ROTC does not have a presence at Brown, so Nathaniel Fick does seem to be correct about at least one of the four universities he mentioned by name. The Harvard link a few sentences ago specifically mentions that "Current federal policy of excluding known lesbian, gay, and bisexual individuals from admission to ROTC or of discharging them from service is inconsistent with Harvard's values as stated in its policy on discrimination." Googling will show that Harvard was graduating ROTC cadets at least as recently as 2004 so the orientation discrimination policy must be fairly recent. Brown hasn't had ROTC since 1972 so that's probably got more to do with Vietnam than discrimination policies.

frazzledspice · #44 10-15-2007, 07:06 PM

In the case of my friend's son, I would say he was acting under duress.

One of my main concerns about children entering the military is that the health and safety risks are so open-ended.

Years later, Vietnam vets are coming down with Agent Orange related illnesses (my husband's hit in 1997.)

Years later, Gulf War vets are coming down with Gulf War related illnesses.....

Who knows what environmental hazards the young men and women returning from Iraq are carrying home as little time bombs threatening to detonate in their bodies and ruin their health?

But we can be sure of one thing--10, 15 years after they get sick, the VA MIGHT decide to recognize it as an Iraq War illness....

My husband's Agent Orange illness wasn't recognized until 2001, and we didn't even know it was related to Agent Orange until 2005....

**conradd** · #45 10-15-2007, 07:52 PM

Quote:

frazzledspice said

But when I look at his situation, I see that he was really acting under duress, as, I imagine, a sizeable majority of military recruits are..

Frazz, you've mentioned several times that your friend's son entered the ROTC program "under duress" The dictionary definition of duress would mean that he was threatened, or forcibly restricted, or constrained in order to secure his signature on his ROTC contract. The fact that he can, if he chooses, walk away from it and assume responsibility for his own tuition indicates that there was no duress. Yes, tuition is an inducement to military service. But, as you also indicate, there are other options. So, to think that the "majority" of young men and women join under duress doesn't appear to hold water. Unless you have evidence to back this up, please rethink this argument.

I'm sorry his family is having such a hard time with his decision. I've dealt with folks like that. One young woman wrote to me that she was determined to rescue her younger brother from the military. Never mind that he was fully informed and made a conscious decision to enlist. Never mind that he had no desire to be "rescued". It resulted in a family estranged. If only she could have supported him instead. It would have made such a difference for him. There are worse decisions that he could have made.

Quote:

Do you have three days to change your mind, as is legally required with most other contracts? I think that that would be important in a decision that affects your life much more than buying a car, or even buying a home.

In almost no circumstance would young men and women walk into a recruiting office and leave the same day for boot camp. Shane worked with local recruiters for almost a year to prepare himself for service. During that time, the recruiters were blunt with him about what military service was all about. I was encouraged to drop in any time with my questions, as are military parents all over the United States in other offices. They held parent nights where boot camp DIs were invited in and answered all questions honestly.

Recruits do not sign an enlistment contract until the day they leave for boot camp. By that time, Frazz, they know what they're signing up for. They receive far more counseling and training than any consumer would when buying a home, car, or any other major purchase. How much do you actually know about the process and how much of your conjecture is based on your own lack of knowledge?

**drmomentum**[$] · #46 10-15-2007, 08:28 PM

I'm disappointed to see Fick repeating that ROTC red herring.

The quotation I posted some weeks ago from Columbia stated that they objected to discriminatory military hiring practices. I have not yet seen a reason to question the veracity of that justification.

I've been involved with the search and screen process at a university and it is not difficult for me to believe at all that they are serious about it. Nondiscrimination is considered very serious at my university. We have to write out interview questions beforehand, they get reviewed, and if I ask any question that (for example) acknowledges that I noticed they were male or female, I'm in trouble with the university.

If we accept what Fick says about the importance and effect of more people being involved in military service, how does that square with discriminatory practices? What about citizens who want to enlist, but cannot? Of course the military has standards, but are we going to argue that GLBT folks are unfit for service by default?

Do any of these books address this issue, because it would seem to be in the vicinity of the core of the argument.

-JP

**hadassahchana**[$] · #47 10-16-2007, 02:30 AM

It would be really interesting to hear Fick's thoughts on the issue, since he is hardly a pro-Bush spokesman. I do know that he replied to the retired colonel who wrote the op-ed pice in the NYT about chainging that policy, and he seemed to support the thought. It's going to take a lot of pushing, and from people like Fick.

frazzledspice · #48 10-16-2007, 03:38 AM

If life has dealt the family of a young person some severe blows, and he feels he has no other viable financial alternatives to pay for college, I would call that "duress." Perhaps we define duress differently.

And his family is already dealing with the tremendous stress of having one parent in a minimally conscious state (perhaps a teeny tiny smidge better than a persistent vegetative state...) for six years.

Of course his older sisters try to be surrogate moms to him as much as they can. It is only natural since they have lost their mother.

I don't know that much about the recruitment process today. What I know is that they came to my daughter's high school and held contests and gave away prizes and T-shirts, and that they sent her some mail offering incentives like free I-tunes cards for checking the military out.

There was a Junior ROTC in the high school on the other side of our school district, and students who wanted to participate could choose to attend that school or be bused over for last period.

My daughter's ex-bf looked into the Air National Guard because he wanted to go to medical school....but the ANG only goes to Kuwait, and only for about four months at a time....he probably will still do this when he graduates from high school. He is a hard worker and a great kid, and I think that of all the military choices, the ANG is probably the best for him.

**jgibson2**[$] · #49 10-16-2007, 04:48 AM

MaryAnn,
I've known many people who worked full time and took college courses. They managed to graduate. It wasn't easy, but certainly an alternative to the military for someone who doesn't want to take that route. I've known others who worked part time and borrowed money (including me). Community college for the first 2 years is an alternative that saves a lot of money as well. If his family really opposed this choice, they could even have looked into ways to help him financially.

Duress? With all the possible alternatives? I think not. You prefer to believe that he has no alternatives, but anyone who can be accepted into an ROTC program certainly has the ability to choose a different path.

I think you just don't want to admit that this young man may have chosen military service for positive reasons rather than negative ones.

**mjfrombuffalo**[$] · #50 10-16-2007, 08:44 AM

Quote:

jgibson2 said

Duress? With all the possible alternatives? I think not. You prefer to believe that he has no alternatives, but anyone who can be accepted into an ROTC program certainly has the ability to choose a different path.

It's not actually whether MaryAnn thinks the young man had alternatives, but if the young man believed he had alternatives. Some don't have the experience or the broad view or what have you to think outside a couple immediate alternatives, and let's not forget teenagers' absolutist thinking patterns.

**hadassahchana**[$] · #51 10-16-2007, 01:55 PM

See, ROTC never occurred to me while I was working at least part-time to put myself through school. I got financial aid but I knew going in that I'd have to work really a lot in order to make ends meet. I worked full-time for a couple of terms but couldn't keep up my grades, so I worked part time. It's not like it was unheard of, most of my friends did that too. That's why I don't completely buy the duress idea. I did meet a couple of people who were in ROTC for financial reasons, but they both wanted to go to med school and wanted to get that paid for and then get experience in the Army before going into private practice. However, for the rest of us working through school was a given before I ever applied.

**mjfrombuffalo**[$] · #52 10-16-2007, 02:01 PM

My finances and ability to work and do school simultaneously had me considering the packet West Point sent me. I was too afraid of basic training though.

**jgibson2**[$] · #53 10-16-2007, 02:18 PM

Quote:

mjfrombuffalo said

My finances and ability to work and do school simultaneously had me considering the packet West Point sent me. I was too afraid of basic training though.

And with drill requirements, etc of ROTC, working part time shouldn't be that much more stressful. They do offer a better financial aid package than I got what with the loans and jobs, but the commitment is longer for ROTC. Or maybe not, since it took me nearly 10 years to pay back the loans. Unfortunately, I didn't have the ROTC option. They have this bias against people with exercise-induced asthma.

frazzledspice · #54 10-17-2007, 11:26 AM

With my daughter's ex who's thinking about the Air National Guard, it's a matter of having been born into a Hispanic immigrant family. After moving here before he was born, his mother learned Engish and got her nursing degree. His Dad has a pretty good job, too, and got a promotion when he was transferred to another state...I have no doubt his parents could afford to help him and his two siblings with college, but they don't think it would be good for them. He is a hard worker and a great kid. Because he's interested in medicine, he wants to be an EMT in the Air Guard.

My friend's son never really thought about ROTC until a recruiter came to his school. His sisters had both had full athletic scholarships to college (swimming.) His family wasn't in the dire straits it's in now when his older sister started college...it happened when his second sister was a high school senior.

When he was in JHS he got really interested in paintball....I think it helped him to release his anger at having a mother who fell into a coma when he was 12 and a family that kind of fell apart at the seams. Before that he was a really gentle boy.

But he seems to have joined ROTC for pragmatic reasons, not political ones.

**jgibson2**[$] · #55 10-17-2007, 11:44 AM

Well if they'd have let me, I'd have joined the Army Nurse Corps for the educational opportunities (Nurse Midwife program) which were much better than what was available at the time in the civilian sector. Also, officer salaries at the time way surpassed what civilian nurses were getting. I didn't consider any of that duress at the time. I suspect that your friend's son doesn't either.

And paintball is a fairly typical interest for middle school boys. It has very little to do with aggression. Really. They think it's fun. It's a guy thing.

Pragmatic reasons aren't necessarily evil.

erik_kosberg · #56 10-25-2007, 01:36 PM

In which Dana Perino displays how clueless she is.

**mjfrombuffalo**[$] · #57 10-25-2007, 01:39 PM

OK, so I see that Code Pink protested in a disruptive way... but how is that Congress' responsibility/fault/whatever?

erik_kosberg · #58 10-25-2007, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Perino said

...increasingly, Congress is being run by Code Pink.

I guess that Congress isn't the responsible/at fault party anyway. They were just following orders.

Who knew that a press secretary could be more of a buffoon than Tony Snow?

**slick4591**[$] · #59 10-25-2007, 03:59 PM

Okay, now I'm really scared. Duck! Look out for the flying pigs.

**drmomentum**[$] · #60 10-25-2007, 04:32 PM

Quote:

erik_kosberg said

Who knew that a press secretary could be more of a buffoon than Tony Snow?

Come on. Was anyone more entertaining than Scott McClellan? And that was back with the most credulous press corps in the history of the country.