Discussion of Math & Science requirements in academia (non-funny version)

frazzledspice · #1 11-24-2007, 05:35 PM

In the lady's defense, there is a lot of emphasis now (at least in my daughter's high school) on having kids fill up their schedules with Math and Science courses.

The guidance counselor told my daughter (and me) that she needed to take 4 years of Math and 4 years of Science so that she could qualify for a "Challenge Scholarship."

I said, "Her brothers only took 3 years of Math and 3 years of Science in the 1990's and had no trouble getting accepted in college or getting scholarships.

She has no interest in pursuing a Math or Science related career, but, on the other hand, she has many other academic interests she would rather fill her schedule with.

She has never taken a study hall during high school, and doesn't plan on doing it....

Besides, we looked on the website, and the Challenge Scholarship you refer to has a family income limitation of $50K a year....

I am not going to force her to take 4 years of Math and Science to qualify for a scholarship she doesn't qualify for anyway."

BTW, she still got a very good scholarship.

Half of me thinks the schools just want their students to take these courses so that THEY look better on their overall stats....

If my daughter was actively interested in a Math or Science-related career, I certainly would have encouraged her. If she had the option of taking a Math course that would have been more "practical" and less theoretical, I would have encouraged her.

BTW, when I got my degree in 1971, I didn't need to take any Math to get my B.A. (I did have to take one year of Science.)

It never hurt me...

**pippadaisy**[$] · #2 11-24-2007, 05:45 PM

And Frazz, that is exactly why the US is falling rapidly behind in the world economy, especially when it comes to tech-sector jobs. ou got your degree nearly 40 years ago. A hell of a lot has changed in what employers are looking for.

G is the perfect example. He has the high school math and science background, as well as two years at Rice doing advanced math and science as a physics major before switching to photography, an art which also requires a LOT of math, BTW. He had no idea when he was in college where he'd end up; as a programmer. And he is STILL, even with over 10 years of experience as programmer, getting turned down for jobs because he didn't do any algorithm coursework.

You can't know in high school where you are going to end up as an adult. And saying "Well, you won't need it in X career," ESPECIALLY in a career as precarious as performing, is just plain irresponsible. Then again, maybe this way she won't be offended when she's left less than 15% as a gratuity while waiting tables.

**jgibson2**[$] · #3 11-24-2007, 05:46 PM

MaryAnn,
HUGE difference between "You need differential calculus" and "Your child needs to work on her math skills"

Math skills = addition, subtraction, multiplication, division. Maybe learning to figure out word problems -- BASIC LIFE SKILLS.

I took 2 semesters of college calculus and about 12 of science (prior to nursing school). I can still read music, play the piano a little, and sing. Didn't hurt me any.

frazzledspice · #4 11-24-2007, 06:05 PM

Quote:

pippadaisy said

And Frazz, that is exactly why the US is falling rapidly behind in the world economy, especially when it comes to tech-sector jobs. ou got your degree nearly 40 years ago. A hell of a lot has changed in what employers are looking for.

There are many more differences between US and Western European/Pacific Rim schools that account for why the US is falling behind in the world economy.

Length of school day. Length of school year. Just for starters. Foreign language requirements (my daughter who had three years of Math has excellent foreign language skills, has studied abroad, and hosted foreign exchange students.)

I found it interesting that entering freshmen in my daughter's college were advised to take their required Math courses during their freshman year.

"If you don't take it right away, it will be a lot harder because you'll have forgotten everything you learned about Math in high school," the advisor said.

Unfortunately, she couldn't get started on her Math first semester because she had conflicts with a course she needed for her major.

I expect she may have to go to the tutoring center when she gets started with Math in January, and, if the advisor is right, she will forget everything she learned in her college Math courses sometime in 2009.

Do you remember anything about what you learned in Algebra, Geometry, or Calculus?

I never took Calculus, but I think that I could pick up the other two if there were a desperate need....and I am willing to wait until that desperate need arises, if ever, to explore that possibility.

My one three years of Math in HS son is a wee bit concerned that when he starts his Master's in Educational Technology this fall he will have wished he took more Math, but he did get 720 in his Math GRE's, and is willing to do what it takes to develop them.

If he had taken more Math in high school, it's doubtful he would have remembered more than he currently does, anyway.

My niece has started her Master's in forensic science (she has been a Psych major in college.) She is DYING because it is all Math and Science, but her bf, a Math graduate, is helping her slog through it...

And you know, it's a shame, because she has amazing people skills and would be a wonderful psychologist--it seems as if CSI is convincing lots of people who would be better at other things to pursue forensic science.

**jgibson2**[$] · #5 11-24-2007, 08:04 PM

Quote:

frazzledspice said

Foreign language requirements (my daughter who had three years of Math has excellent foreign language skills, has studied abroad, and hosted foreign exchange students.)

........

Do you remember anything about what you learned in Algebra, Geometry, or Calculus?

.........

My niece has started her Master's in forensic science (she has been a Psych major in college.) She is DYING because it is all Math and Science, but her bf, a Math graduate, is helping her slog through it...

And you know, it's a shame, because she has amazing people skills and would be a wonderful psychologist--it seems as if CSI is convincing lots of people who would be better at other things to pursue forensic science.

Actually, I've taught Algebra 4 times, geometry twice so far, and helped with calculus -- so yes, I do remember it. I also had enough French to still be able to communicate with French-speaking parents of NICU babies 30 years later (more of those than you'd think). I also studied German (how to read, not how to speak) and ASL, so you can learn math, science, music, AND multiple languages. I did pass on home ec, but I am forever annoyed that only male types were permitted to take auto shop or wood shop classes at my high school.

As for graduate psych programs, most (at least when I was in college) strongly preferred BS, not BA psych majors -- one of many reasons I took so much math and science.

**pippadaisy**[$] · #6 11-24-2007, 08:24 PM

Same here, Judy. Took 4 years of math in three years. Three years of science (physics and I don't get along). Three years of Latin in two years. And I took every music class the school offered except theory (which, in retrospect, I REALLY should have). Also managed to fit in art and dance.

And do I use Geometry? and Algebra? absolutely. Not so much with the trig. And I can speak to any roving Romans I come across! (I did take Spanish and Polish in college, as well as math & two sciences. I had no room for more than the minimum required because of my constant major changes sucking up elective space.)

phoenixx · #7 11-24-2007, 11:51 PM

Honey uses Trig daily. He's in construction. I speak three languages. I am a writer. Don't limit your daughter by your own issues.

**mjfrombuffalo**[$] · #8 11-25-2007, 12:11 AM

Hey guys, this is sixth grade math. The Actress is failing because she doesn't know 5th grade math to begin with. She can't reliably subtract or divide, and before you tell me she can always use a calculator, the child has no number sense. Which means if she subtracts one number from another number she sometimes ends up with a number greater than the other two numbers and doesn't see that there's a problem with it. And no, she's not learning disabled or delayed or dyslexic or anything like that either.

But seriously - why would an adult disempower her child's sixth grade math teacher by saying that the skills are useless and she doesn't need to know them because in the child's (and parent's, apparently) vivid fantasy life, this child will have a career that makes her independently wealthy? This isn't Anna Paquin or an Olsen twin, this child isn't studying drama in her spare time or auditioning on Broadway; I have better odds at being a broadway star than she does. Why on earth would the parent tell the child "go ahead and fail 6th grade math, who cares"? Hell, the kid should at least know how to halve fractions in case she ever has to cook her own meals someday, no? We're not talking guidance counselors pushing AP calculus, we're talking basic sixth grade math.

But honestly, the part that struck me the most was the message she gave her kid, in front of Hubby, that anything a school adult authority says to the kid for the next six months can be safely ignored without fear of any sort of recrimination.

frazzledspice · #9 11-25-2007, 02:46 AM

Quote:

phoenixx said

Honey uses Trig daily. He's in construction. I speak three languages. I am a writer. Don't limit your daughter by your own issues.

Did you ascertain, by any chance, that she wanted to take a fourth year of Math in high school and I was preventing her, kicking and screaming, from doing so?

My only issue was that the guidance counselor was telling us a flat-out baldfaced lie in order to manipulate her into taking a fourth year of Math.

She didn't talk about how Americans aren't competitive with other nations. All she talked about was this scholarship we wouldn't qualify for on the basis of income, without mentioning that fact.

And so I told my daughter, "OK, we looked at the website. We earn too much money for you to get this particular scholarship, but if you still want to take a fourth year of Math anyway, go for it."

She uses Math when she sews and makes her own designs...but not having taken that fourth year of high school hasn't caused her any problems there yet.

**drmomentum**[$] · #10 11-25-2007, 12:15 PM

I'll be over in the corner eating popcorn while the country burns in a pile of underachievement.

America will not survive without a greater emphasis on math and science education. This is not a joke. The 2010s and beyond are not the 1990s. Deep understanding of mathematical concepts are only going to become more vital in the job market and in being an informed citizen.

And pointing at one's own ignorance is not an excuse for more ignorance. But this isn't the Symposium, so I apologize for not making a funny post and voluntarily bow out.

-JP

**theworm**[$] · #11 11-25-2007, 12:28 PM

I hope you don't think I'm criticizing you, Maryanne, but I have to agree with JP. I can't comment about Indiana yet, but the Florida schools were bad. We need the public school system to prepare our kids to compete in the world that they're going to be adults in. The US has given up most of our manufacturing, and we're crazy if we think we can compete in a world market on service and IT.

I totally agree with you that using the scholarship was a crappy approach and that the guidance counselor could have given better reasoning. I do think, however, that we need to be more demanding in our expectations of the school system. We have kids growing up in a computer age where its easy to do more and to do it quickly, but also enables people to function without understanding - and that is dangerous.

I also think, though, that not everyone is cut out for advanced math and science and that we need the education system to also provide more vocational training and life skills.

I'm sorry that your experience with the guidance counselor was so negative.

phoenixx · #12 11-25-2007, 12:42 PM

The guidance counselors and teachers shouldn't have to give parents a reason why they should teach their kids to survive and succeed in this century. Parents should push their kids to do more than what they "want" or "feel like" doing, not be their buddy and make them feel good - after all, one of the most important lessons they can learn is that sometimes life is hard and they have to work for something. Even I have contemplated going back to school online to improve my math skills, which are abysmal in light of the amount of technology writing and online work I do now. I also agree with JP, both on what he said and that this isn't the Symposium, so I'll bow out.

**jgibson2**[$] · #13 11-25-2007, 04:58 PM

This started with a discussion of a mom who told her SIXTH GRADER she didn't need math. That's a long way from MaryAnne's daughter not seeing a reason to take a 4th year of high school math.

Keeping your options open for college and beyond is the argument I'd have used for her. The guidance counselor probably didn't take more math or he'd have known that. Many people do fine without higher math, but their options are limited - whether they know it or not. FWIW, I really wish I'd also taken more computer courses in college, because my options are also limited.

HOWEVER, if that 6th grader believes her mom, she's very likely to end up saying "would you like fries with that" and depending on the cash register to tell her how much change to give -- if she can even manage to count the change. Trust me, some of those kids can't. It isn't funny at all.

frazzledspice · #14 11-25-2007, 05:40 PM

I certainly don't think that the only alternative for people who don't pile up their course load with Math and Science is "vocational and life skills."

Nor do I think that in the "service and technical economy" Math and Science skills are the most important things students need to learn. How about good oral and written communication skills? This is also an area in which American schools are often criticized for not teaching well.

Not to mention being an area in which many Math and Science majors aren't that adept....

When my oldest children were in elementary school, the school day was 6 hours long....by the time my youngest was in elementary school (she's 13 years younger than the oldest) the school day was 7 hours 20 minutes long.

My children actually have some good Mathematical genes, as do I, and when I can use them for practical, useful purposes I am grateful for them.

Of course, with more and more knowledge to acquire (and faster and faster ways of accessing it) what is needed most is thinking skills. I don't know whether thinking skills are best taught in the abstract (e.g. Math.)

I always remember my Geometry class--sometimes I would figure out creative ways to arrive at the answers to a problem, and Sister Andreas would mark me wrong. I always thought any subject that would penalize me for being creative wasn't really worth a darn....

When my hubby got his degree (through night school, while working as a computer programmer) he was an English major. His reasoning was that he already was working in IT, needed a degree, but didn't need all the stress that came from lots of Math and Science courses. (This was, of course, in 1975.) He said that studies showed that English majors made the best computer programmers, and so he majored in English. And every secretary he ever had praised his written communication skills to the skies...

No one ever asked him about algorithms on job interviews (of course he's been in management for thirty years or so.)

frazzledspice · #15 11-25-2007, 05:54 PM

I will submit an anecdote.

Not funny, heartwarming.

When my daughter was in a Lutheran preschool, her teacher, the minister's wife, would always grab parents' hands as they sat down to the conference and lead them in prayer.

It was amazing how starting with a prayer set the tone for a positive conference.

If teachers in religious schools adopted this practice (and I have never seen another teacher do it) I am sure it would defuse many potential disagreements and remind teacher and parents that both are working to help the child reach his highest potential.

Dear Lord, I will try to remember that all these posters who have criticized me as a parent and my daughter as a student because she chose to take a third year of foreign language instead of a fourth year of Math in high school are doing it because they believe they have her best interests at heart, even though they don't know her.

Amen.

magenta321 · #16 11-25-2007, 07:56 PM

Maryann, the difference between your daughter and the girl in this thread is that this girl HAS to take math. It's not an elective at 6th grade, and it's probably more "life-skills" type math than anything else. Her parents should be supporting the teacher.

With high school, math eventually becomes an elective, and it's very debatable how many people will actually ever use that math in their life. I didn't take extra math, but I did take one elective science (chemistry, bleh). I didn't get lunches in school because I had only 8 periods, and wanted to take more than 8 classes. I still never got to take an art class in those four years, and I can't tell you how desperately I wanted to. If I could have traded my algebra or geometry classes for an art class, it would have been more than worth it to me, personally.

I don't think anyone would find fault with you letting your high school aged daughter choose not to take an extra math class, but, let's face it, this 6th grader needs to take the classes the school board say she has to take, and it's much better off if the parents are supporting the teacher and telling the daughter "even if you don't like it, you still have to learn this, and we're going to help you."

MJ, keep the anecdotes coming

We enjoy them.

**theworm**[$] · #17 11-25-2007, 11:57 PM

Maryanne, if you think that I criticized your daughter or your parenting skills, I truly apologize. That was never my intent. I was speaking in generalities and I'm sorry I hurt your feelings.

**mjfrombuffalo**[$] · #18 11-26-2007, 02:47 PM

For those new to the thread (ie the version before being split and put in Symposium), the discussion started with Hubby the 6th Grade Math Teacher telling a parent her daughter needed to improve, and the mother telling the daughter that she didn't have to worry about math since she was going to be an actress. And no, the mom wasn't kidding.

At what point are math skills "higher math skills"? 6th grade math in NYS includes doing math with fractions, basic geometry, decimals, percentages, positive/negative numbers, and very basic algebra (the kind of stuff one does now when they're trying to figure out how to figure out a problem, like in word problems). Some of Hubby's kids don't have the multiplication and division stuff figured out yet. They also lack some number sense - ask them "How much would you pay for $100 sneakers if they are on sale 20% off" and they'll tell you stuff like $140 and not know that it's wrong. I'm thinking the cut-off for "higher math skills" is a bit past 6th grade math, at any rate.