Why So Much Ridiculing of Mormonism?

[AuntieEmma[$]]

Also Lieberman was running pretty much under the radar -- so much so that I forgot that he even ran for President, until JP reminded me above!! (Well, that could be my senility, but I wouldn't have forgotten that Howard Dean ran -- I wouldn't have even forgotten that Kucinich and Al Sharpton were in the race! On the other hand, I probably might have forgotten that Kerry ran -- the memory is already fading, like a bad dream. )

I think if Lieberman ever looked like he would become the front-runner, he would have had to say something about his religion. Romney is a real contender -- it's really possible that he might win the nomination -- so he's coming under more scrutiny. So I think that's part of it.

But I do agree that it is also a Republican thing, because they've come to rely so much on the support of their conservative Christian base.

[frazzledspice]

Beyond his church membership, I think that Romney's real problem is that he's the Republican equivalent of Kerry.

John Edwards would have done well to have plunked down his $500 at either of those candidates' hairstylists.

Romney has this highbrow elitism etched into every bone of his body (as did Kerry, even though I did vote for Kerry in the general election.)

And it was never more evident than when he said that his five sons, none of whom served in the military, DID serve their country because they were working on his campaign.

At the time, I thought to myself, "If every soldier in Iraq was randomly polled and asked whether he would rather be risking his life in Iraq or flying around in a private jet eating free fried chicken and ribs dinners all over the USA, I wonder what percentage would vote to serve their country doing the latter? 99.9? 99.8?"

[drmomentum[$]]

frazzledspice said

Beyond his church membership[...]

His church membership perhaps hurts him among Republicans, but his phoniness hurts him in the general election.

I think that people who think Hilary is phony will suddenly forget that once they meet Romney.

[brian_igo]

frazzledspice said

Romney has this highbrow elitism etched into every bone of his body (as did Kerry, even though I did vote for Kerry in the general election.)

Kerry's father was a career diplomatic officer. Kerry got into Yale on his own grades, enlisted and volunteered for Vietnam immediately after graduating, and got a job as a prosecutor after finishing law school. Long before marrying Teresa Heinz, Kerry made his own money as a lawyer before getting into politics.

Some elitism...

[frazzledspice]

Parts of Kerry's bio, via Wikipedia:

Kerry is the second child of Richard John Kerry, a Foreign Service agent and an attorney for the Bureau of United Nations Affairs, and Rosemary Forbes Kerry, a World War II nurse and member of the wealthy Forbes family.

As a child, Kerry served as an altar boy. Although the extended family enjoyed a great fortune, Kerry's parents themselves were upper-middle class; a wealthy great aunt paid for Kerry to attend elite schools in Europe and New England.[citation needed] Kerry spent his summers at the Forbes family estate in France, and there, he enjoyed a more opulent lifestyle than he had previously known in Massachusetts

Family

Kerry was married to Julia Thorne in 1970, and they had two daughters together: Alexandra and Vanessa. Alexandra was born on September 5, 1973, days before Kerry began law school. A graduate of Brown University, she received her M.F.A. in June 2004 from the AFI Conservatory. She is a documentary filmmaker. Vanessa was born on December 31, 1976. She is a graduate of Phillips Academy (like her grandfather) and Yale University, and attended Harvard Medical School and a master's program in health policy in London.

Purportedly his first wife was also quite wealthy.

John Kerry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I said their elitism was "etched" into them, not "bred" into them. Kerry, like Romney, has a "to the manner born" air about him....

And we are talking about public perception here.

[brian_igo]

I know perception can have little to do with reality, especially in politics, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

[rmthunter]

In spite of Article II, I believe it is, of the Constitution, the Republican party now has a religious test for holding public office: you are a conservative Christian or you're in trouble. Most conservative and evangelical Christians don't consider LDS to be Christian (many of them do not consider Catholics to be "real" Christians, either); since they have sole access to The Truth, I guess their word is final.

As for the Lieberman comparison, take into consideration that the public discourse has had seven years to degenerate from an already low level. And, in the 2000 primaries, the Democrats were not going to criticize anyone for being Jewish -- that's not an issue for Democrats; in the general election, if the Republicans had made it an issue, it would have backfired badly (and, as someone pointed out, he was only running for VP). In Romney's case, this is a Republican primary, and everyone running is pandering to the radical Christianist element. In the general election, no one's going to give a damn if he's LDS or an acolyte of the Flying Spaghetti Monster -- except the Republican base. This is also the party for which smear campaigns are a standard campaign tool.

Don't forget, the conservative/corporatist wing of the country owns the MSM, which is much less concerned with journalism than corporate profits and access to power. And, in spite of the 2006 election results, the Republicans still control the administration, the courts, and Congress.

And Romney is such an easy target anyway.

[pippadaisy[$]]

I guess I must have missed the part where visiting rich aunts makes you to the manner born. Shoot, my sister is wealthier than either my parents or I am... I guess that makes me wealthy by association? Someone ought to inform my bank account. And my 1391 SF house.

[drmomentum[$]]

I thought "to the manner born" just meant being comfortable in and accustomed to your chosen occupation. So I'm a little confused. Don't you want to elect someone that seems comfortable as a leader?

-JP

[erik_kosberg]

Isn't it "to the MANOR born"?

[pippadaisy[$]]

LOL. Yes, and I know better. I think I just copied frazz's original.

Manor: house in which I have never lived. Visited, and coveted, but never lived.

[AuntieEmma[$]]

Isn't it "to the MANOR born"?

Strangely enough, I just learned the other day that there is an actual term -- eggcorn -- that describes this kind of thing, where one word or phrase is used instead of another that sounds very similar, with the new term making sense in its own way. Sometimes, when used enough, the new word will even edge out the old one and eventually become the standard usage.

Anyway ..... eggcorn, eggcorn, eggcorn, eggcorn, eggcorn!!!

I'm so glad I got a chance to use that so soon after learning it!

From Wikipedia:

In linguistics, an eggcorn is an idiosyncratic substitution of a word or phrase for a word or words that sound similar or identical in the speaker's dialect. Characteristic of the eggcorn is that the new phrase makes sense on some level ("old-timer's disease" for "Alzheimer's disease"). Eggcorns often involve replacing an unfamiliar, archaic, or obscure word with a more common or modern word ("baited breath" for "bated breath").[1]

The term "eggcorn" was coined by Geoffrey Pullum in September 2003, in response to an article by Mark Liberman on the website Language Log, a blog for linguists.[2] Liberman discussed the case of a woman who substitutes the phrase egg corn for the word acorn, arguing that the precise phenomenon lacked a name; Pullum suggested using "eggcorn" itself.

[mjfrombuffalo[$]]

Truth or not, that was the perception that was developed and stuck, and people reacted to their perception. We can argue all we want about whether or not it's true, but it's true people thought he was "elite" when they voted.

[frazzledspice]

pippadaisy said

I guess I must have missed the part where visiting rich aunts makes you to the manner born. Shoot, my sister is wealthier than either my parents or I am... I guess that makes me wealthy by association? Someone ought to inform my bank account. And my 1391 SF house.

Pippa, does your sister send all of your children to elite private boarding schools?

Do they spend their entire summers living on her estate in France?

If Kerry was in prep school, courtesy of his wealthy aunt, for nine months a year, and on an estate in France the other three, he probably didn't spend much time in a 1391 sf house.

But, be that as it may, I voted for Kerry in the general election. I did not vote for him in the primaries. There was something about his personality that made it difficult for him to relate to everyday people. I thought it would make him harder to elect, and it did.

And, so, whether he grew up rich or not, spending 11 1/2 months a year with the fabulously wealthy rubbed off on him in a not so wonderful way.

[AuntieEmma[$]]

I agree Kerry has a personality which isn't great for national politics, and that he did come across as stiff and unspontaneous. But I had never attributed that to his being wealthy. Kerry and Bush both came from similarly wealthy backgrounds -- Bush also went to elite prep schools, and spent summers and holidays at the mansion in Maine which has been owned by his family since 1903 -- but the two men have very different personalities.

Bush compound - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[wivabef]

Personally, some of my favorite people are very wealthy. I think Kerry is just stiff. Would have been stiff if her were poor.

[rmthunter]

Kerry just made the same mistake that Democrats always make -- he focused on the issues, not on pushing people's buttons. You talk about issues, you start to sound serious. Doesn't work with the American electorate -- they start thinking you're hoity-toity.

[hadassahchana[$]]

frazzledspice said

Pippa, does your sister send all of your children to elite private boarding schools?

Do they spend their entire summers living on her estate in France?

And if so, would she adopt me?

[frazzledspice]

rmthunter said

Kerry just made the same mistake that Democrats always make -- he focused on the issues, not on pushing people's buttons. You talk about issues, you start to sound serious. Doesn't work with the American electorate -- they start thinking you're hoity-toity.

But with Romney it's not just focusing on issues. When you compare his 5 sons' service helping Romney with his campaign with a Marine or National Guard member on a 15 month tour of duty in Iraq, there is absolutely no comparison.

The fact that Romney even thought it might be comparable means that, before he makes any more speeches, he should probably go and spend a week in Iraq with the troops, sharing their living conditions and risks....

[jgibson2[$]]

rmthunter said

Kerry just made the same mistake that Democrats always make -- he focused on the issues, not on pushing people's buttons.

So is that why he started so many sentences with "When I was in Vietnam"?

I found it really hard to take anything seriously that started with that phrase. It made him sound stuck in the '70s.