Obesity is child abuse

[eplovejoy]

This morning I was walking by some vending machines just after 7 a.m. A girl of about 10 or 12 was trying to buy a 24-ounce bottle of soda but she'd dropped her dollar and was, I'm not exaggerating, too fat to pick it up. Her parents, even fatter, told her just to leave it and they'd give her another.

I picked up the dollar, handed it back and they bought their daughter her breakfast soft drink. What I really wanted to do was keep it as my tip for not throttling them and yelling, "Can't you see what you're doing to her?"

Or better yet, just throttle them.

We take children away from their parents when there are such obvious signs of abuse as burn marks and repeated broken bones. In rare cases, we allow the state to step in to force medical treatment for children whose parents have religious beliefs against medicines or surgeries.

When can we justify stepping in to protect a child from the serious effects of morbid obesity? I think a pre-teen's inability to pick up a piece of paper should be sufficient grounds.

This raises the same question on the other end of the spectrum. Contrary to that nitwit Duchess of Windsor, one can be too thin. I'm stuck here. All I can come up with is the old obscenity test (Associate Justice Potter Stewart's, I think): I know it when I see it.

Any guidance? Dissent?

[mjfrombuffalo[$]]

In concept I agree but the child welfare system's definition of child abuse refers to "imminent danger," which makes execution of the concept difficult. In neglect cases where a child is starved, it can lead to death more quickly and directly than obesity can, for example. In neglect/starvation, the child wants food but can't have it; in obesity, the child can eat (or not eat) what is available to him or her - the child has more choices. Even exercise has flip sides: in some abuse cases, children were made to run up and down the sidewalk until they threw up. Would letting the child stay inside to play video games (child's choice) be considered abuse since it contributed to the child being obese?

Merely weighing the child would not necessarily be evidence of obesity caused by parental abuse - other factors, like genetics and cultural values that encourage "well-fed children" can come into play.

Sometimes it's not the parents. I've had at least two cases where teens in foster care were morbidly obese despite their parents' best efforts, including padlocking the refrigerator and cupboards.

Finally, we've discussed before how obesity can be a function of poverty - cheap food (starches and sugars and fats) leads to fat bodies. If a parent is buying soda and pasta to strech the food stamp budget the farthest, would we be unfairly punishing the parents for having low income or lacking transportation to places where fresh produce is available at low prices? (That's a big problem in NYC.) And at the poor end of the economy, following the RDA for fruits and vegetables is often a very low priority on the family's crisis-mode to-do list.

[pippadaisy[$]]

Trying to feed a family of children is hard, hard, hard! We live paycheck to paycheck with G working full-time and me working part-time mainly because of our ridiculous grocery bill. We don't have the luxury of being able to give the boys processed foods, which could cut our bill in half.

At some point, American society as a whole needs to take responsibility for what we've created: a culture where healthy isn't necessarily available to the lower income brackets.

Then again, I had a pediatrician who rode my parents about my weight as a child. I look back on pictures now and I realize I was NEVER "obese" but he was a big BMI advocate before BMI was all the rage. If you were to look at Buster, my child who is rock-solid muscle with about a 4-pack out of six with all the running and karate and everything else he does. His BMI, however, would say he's obese, so I'm imagining I may have been built the same way. Instead, I have lived a lifetime of disordered eating.

We have a school program where ice cream and Gatorade are served every day in the cafeteria, yet birthday "treats" have to meet nutritional guidelines. We aren't teaching kids HOW to be healthy, and constantly harping about it without changing the culture just makes them self-conscious and obsessed. Like me.

[wivabef]

Yeah, I guess the first group of people who should be punished would be the school systems. I let my daughters get school lunch once a week and have considered dropping that one time because it's a pile of transfats and processed foods.

[magenta321]

What Pippa said.

We have a culture built on Kraft. We feed our children "cheese product" instead of cheese, our fruit juices are filled with high fructose corn syrup. I try to watch what I eat, but I know I'm confused as hell about what is healthy, and when I am buying products like a loaf of bread, I usually give up on finding a healthy loaf, and settle on the one that is the least bad in my opinion that week. I don't know whether the high fructose corn syrup or the bleached, enriched wheat is the greater evil. I don't know if buying products like Smart Balance are healthier than butter, or just as bad as margerine, but we don't know it yet. I don't know how to pick anything other than fruits and vegetables. Oh, but don't buy them if they come from Brazil because they have no regulations on the amount of chemicals they use. If you must buy from Brazil, don't buy the fruits that hold a lot of water like cherries or grapes... etc. Ok, so now the only thing that is healthy is meat. Oh, but it's genetically engineered, pumped with growth hormones, and full of antibiotics. Dairy and eggs are out for the same reason. Hmm... I can't find a food group that I know how to make a good choice about. I can't afford to buy 100% organic. What does organic mean, is it healthier?

I think calling fat children abused children will do a lot of psychological damage. For one, because there are a lot of underlying problems that could be causing their obesity. For another, if you watch a child's weight closely, I can almost promise you, that child is going to have weight issues all their life. For the last reason, because I don't know that having a kid who is overweight is reason enough to disrupt the family.

Yes, we need to do something about what we eat. We're all getting fatter in America. Not just the poor people. I think we're all confused about what is healthy and what is not. I think it's scary what our government is willing to let us eat as far as chemicals and hormones in our foods. I'm not sure all the blame lies on bad parenting, when it's a national problem like it is.

[rmthunter]

I don't think you can legitimately call child obesity child abuse. It's a much more subtle and widespread problem than that and affects adults as well as children. It really is a cultural phenomenon that starts with the fact that there's more money to be made from offering foods loaded with things that should not be in our bodies, so that's what's most readily available. Add in income vs. prices for "good" food (I just noticed that eggs are at $2.49 a dozen at my local Jewel; meat and produce prices there are ridiculous, and that's the "moderately priced" chain, or has been until recently -- given the economies of scale, you'd think they could do better, but refer back to the concept of "money" -- they seem to raise prices every three months no matter what), and the general lack of information on what's actually in the food you're buying (labeling notwithstanding), and I don't think you can blame parents completely. (Let's face it, if you could punish people for being ignorant, most of us would be in jail.)

There are some things that are under our control, like steering away from processed foods, implementing the concept of "balanced meals" and also the concept of "regular exercise." People need to take the time to learn about food, which in spite of all the periodic outcries about whatever, doesn't seem to be important enough for anyone to get behind the idea. We can also lobby our legislators at the state and federal levels for more and/or better oversight of Big Ag (not that I'm advocating a nanny state, but oversight is obviously necessary -- "voluntary compliance" means "this is a joke, right?").

I'm getting of on a bit of a tangent here, so let me circle back by saying there are a lot of factors involved in obesity, starting with individual psychology, cultural expectations (several subcultures in this country see "ample" as "prosperous"), income (and the psychological effects of poverty, and let's not forget that for most of us, a key factor in buying food is what we can afford to spend), lifestyle, amount of physical activity, metabolism and body type. All you need to do to solve the problem is to "fix" all those.

(Full disclosure -- I have always been thin. Like at age 25, six feet tall, 125 pounds. It was worse when I was younger. Fortunately, I gained weight as I got older, but over 165, I feel sluggish and lazy. I've lost 8 pounds in the past six months, and I'm delighted -- not that I'm what anyone else would consider fat. It's just the way my body is made, and I've gotten too heavy for my own comfort, mostly through laziness. Consequently, I have my own take on weight issues.)

[eplovejoy]

Perhaps I was too subtle, although that doesn't sound like me.

This girl's parents were buying her a soft drink out of a vending machine. The $1.75 it cost would not qualify it as one of the cheap ones that someone trying to stretch a dollar might go for. And did I not emphasize sufficiently the irrelevance of the dropped dollar to these people? Poverty is a pressing issue, but not in this case.

If self-esteem is to be a consideration, all the more reason to intervene now. Whatever good feelings she might have about herself will be obliterated when she faces the ostracism and worse she will suffer in high school.

Of course we need to make significant and broad changes in the way we as a culture deal with food. That is a separate discussion and one worth having.

There are genetic components and other factors that one must take into account when making an assessment of all the causes of obesity. But an obvious factor in this case was the 24-ounce bottle of high fructose sludge the parents were buying their daughter. If it had been a bottle of beer, I could have called the police and the parents would have been arrested.

What I'm getting at is that we should have a mechanism that would have allowed me to call child protection authorities. The law stipulates that the danger has to be immediate which is why I'm asking: Shouldn't we change the definition of immediate? She might take years to die of high blood pressure, or her overloaded blood vessels could give out on the spot and she could have a stroke. And even if the effects take a long time to manifest, they are inevitable. That should count.

If her parents had hit her in the face, I could have called the police. Shouldn't allowing her to stuff her face with empty calories count the same way?

[mjfrombuffalo[$]]

Yes, I noted the "dropped dollar" part of the scenario, but you are talking about creating a new rule that would apply to everyone. You can't change the designation for child abuse for different income levels.

If you eliminate the "immediate" designation, you open the door very, very wide - and there's already times where we wish CPS didn't use their discretion as much in making decisions now.

What? You don't play Baby Einstein videos for your kid? Call CPS!

Hey! You didn't play catch with your kids even once this summer! Call CPS!

Letting the kids stay up late to watch prime time TV? Off with your heads!

Don't you know your kids need you to read to them or they will suffer bad grades in school?! You're a neglectful parent and your kids belong in foster care!

Many, many things one set of parents do can be considered by another set of parents as poor choices that may lead to detrimental effects. How much freedom to make parenting choices do you want the state to constrain?

Other questions: How do you know this child drinks soda all the time, and that this wasn't a one-time treat? How do you know that the child doesn't have a medical condition that (by itself or as part of the medication side-effects) lead her to have excess weight? And do you want overworked, underpaid child welfare investigators spending their time on this or on a child who is at imminent risk of serious injury or death? God knows they already get beset upon by the taxpaying public for either letting kids stay home in questionable situations or intrusively investigating families for "small" parental infractions, like leaving kids in cars in the convenience store parking lot for 10 minutes.

While I agree it's a sin to contribute to or do nothing to keep your child from being obses, it's not a cause for the state to invade the family's business. Most of the physical effects of obesity take time to appear and when they do, are treatable. Yes, it would be better if they didn't get high blood pressure, diabetes, etc., at all. Yes, the schools and the child's pediatrition and the child's extended family and parents' friends and neighbors should be advising the parents to look at their child's weight and take action. Yes, the school and doctor should be advising the child of the need to lose weight as she gets old enough to make her own educated food choices. But it isn't a state matter, and making it one opens the door to questioning too many other things parents do or don't do, all of which can conceivably have a negative effect on the child in high school and later.

I wonder what people think here, those who were overweight as children. Do you wish CPS had intervened and told your parents they needed to help you lose weight or risk having you placed in foster care? Would that have done any good?

[pippadaisy[$]]

My sister was what anyone would have said was obese (and I'm wondering why *I* got so much flack from the pediatrician when she was obviously chubby?). As an adult? She's built like a Barbie doll... tall & skinny with Barbie's endownments (I don't know WHY that happened).

Sure, go ahead. Blame my parents for her being chubby as a kid, put her in foster care since they were OBVIOUSLY abusive parents for letting her be that way, and don't take into consideration that it was a phase she was going through where she gained before she grew or before her metabolism changed as an adolescent.

P.S. I'm not sure she could have picked up the dollar at one point either, but I'm not sure how much of that was colored by child impressions.

P.S. #2: As adults, I'm the obese one. She's the thin one. My kids eat healthy. Her kids eat nothing but crap. There is no rhyme or reason.

[Helen_B[$]]

We're talking about first order changes here: put the kids in care, don't let obese people eat out, etc. etc. If I allow that the government has the right to do this, then I have to think they can decide how I give birth, if and for how long I can breastfeed, family sleeping arrangements, and a host of other things that are matters for my informed choice.

he problem with food in our culture, as with so many things, is that economic pressures allowed by consumerism actually determine what food in what form is for sale, how cheap or available it is (subsidies) and even what constitutes food. There is research to show that corn sweetners pack on the weight, but due to farm subsidies that's the sweetener of choice in the US. Overeating has been socially marketed to us as desirable, except if we need to lose weight. Then, we should eat special weight lose food. And, we should drink responsibly, and drink light beer if we're watching our weight, never mind that any kind of alcohol is full of empty calories.

Really, we're looking at broad cultural changes, that have occurred over a long period of time. Most of us don't do farm chores, for example. Anyone who has traveled outside the US will notice that they see fewer overweight people, often because of how much walking people do daily in other countries. (Does the lack of all-you-can-eat buffets have anything to do with this?) Most of us ride everywhere (often, because we have to) and pop, pizza and fast food have become common place, and not a once a year treat. I was graduating grade eight the first time I had pizza in a restaurant.

I was quite active as a child, played outdoors, rode my bike, walked in the woods. We didn't have pop in the house, my mother was aware of eating whole foods long before it became popular. Still, I was overweight by the time I was 12, after being a skinny sickly little kid.

My kids were very overweight by the time they were 10 or 11, and I was serving food way more high in fat than I realized, and allowing them portions that were too large. Our diet was reasonably healthy, but we ate like a threshing crew. Between family attitudes about weight and food, and ignorance about fat content and portion size, we were in trouble without even considering activity levels. It's hard to imagine how this could happen to well educated people, but it did. Being threatened with child protective services would have been very upsetting. Having our family doctor say something, since he saw the kids all the time for illness, might have been helpful. (And not as one pediatrician told me, that I was too good a cook. His implication that it was my fault my kid was fat didn't inspire me to any useful action.)

[frazzledspice]

I don't know whether the 'cause and effect' always computes.

There are two sisters in my church who are morbidly obese. One has one daughter who has always been morbidly obese, and the other has two children who have always been morbidly obese. I don't observe them eating that much more or that differently from other people during church suppers. The one on the hospitality committee is usually too busy cooking and too exhausted to eat....

It's as if they just have the worst heredity in the world. They're really nice, and their children (now young adults) are really nice. Their husbands are both close to average in weight.

I also know children who eat plenty of junk food and are as skinny as rails.

My daughter had a friend with severe asthma. She couldn't exercise much. Her anti-asthma meds were steroidal. Her eating habits were very healthy--and yet she was overweight, with poor muscle tone.

I guess what I'm saying is that other types of child abuse are 'behaviors.' But with childhood obesity, there are lots of variables, and you can't just look at the 'result' and assume that it is the result of neglectful parenting.

I agree that if teachers notice children bringing ding dongs and coke for lunch every day, the guidance counselor could, perhaps, call and offer to give them some sessions on menu-planning and nutrition.

[mtbat]

sometimes it's abuse, sometimes it's genetic. I've seen both. If you've ever watched those darned TV showes where they have obese kids-you'll see parents who give their children anything they want-baskets of fried chicken, candy, ice cream soda....

That's abuse-you don't just give in to your kids-kids don't have the reasoning power to understand what is right, what is wrong-of course neither do many adults but...

There was a case, in either Arizona or New Mexico where a ch ild was taken away because social services decided the parents were overfeeding her-guess what-even in foster care, on special diets SHE DIDN'T LOSE WEIGHT-because her problem was genetic NOT diet, and not her parents fault(well actually it was but...)

My daughter is thin as a whip, she's 5 5 and maybe 100 lbs-and she always has been thin, my son is chubby-he's got some chunkyness we're working on via excersize-but they've been fed the same, treated the same, fairly healthy foods with soem treats-the difference is genetics-she got her dad's he got mine, like my brother B got our mom's genes and I got my dad's genes. I'm prone to heavyness, my frame is bigger, my hips are wider-my brother D is the same way-B is Whip thin.

[realtraveller]

Yes, produce is expensive and spoils quickly. But I've noticed another cultural or generational phenomenon lately. No one keeps a vegetable garden anymore. Obviously that's impossible for apartment or condo dwellers. But in my area, lots of people, even poor people live in bungalows with back yards. Space for a garden. But no one gardens.

And lots of these little houses have orange and grapefruit trees in the front and back yards, planted a generation ago. They hang heavy with fruit that the homeowner or renter doesn't pick. That tree and a $10 juicer could provide gallons of fresh squeezed orange juice.

Both sets of my grandparents kept a garden. My parents keep a garden and they are way up age. Drive through the midwest and the south and who do you see tending gardens? Typically older people. People who remember the Great Depression and Victory gardens from WWII.

There are a lot of components to the obesity epidemic in this country, but there are cheap ways to get fresh vegetables by keeping a garden and very few do it.

[hadassahchana[$]]

Vegetable gardens kept in a city, especially in a high traffic area, are more of a health hazard than doing without. I live on a medium busy street and when I raied lettuce one summer, I could taste exhaust fumes in the salad- when I looked closely, there were black grainy things ime=bedded in the lettuce.

Also, let me at least try to throw fat onto the fire:

BBC video re obesity gene in children

I hope that works. I'll find a better link shortly.

[amykhar]

It's taken be a while to comment on this thread because I really needed to work out my thoughts. I have one overweight child. We have plenty of fruits and veggies in the house. I don't buy soda very often. I seldom have chips or other snack foods here. With this one child, I think it's a combination of emotional eating and genetics.

Bob does buy the girls more junk than I approve of. But, I try not to make a horrible issue about it because I think that if you forbid something, it just becomes more desirable.

The thing that gets me about having an overweight child is that I've seen the damage that harping on weight can do to a girl. So, I don't want to make a huge issue of it. I want to teach her to eat and enjoy healthy foods. I want to teach her to be active and to find physical activities she enjoys. I also want to teach her to dress in a manner that suits her weight.

It's hard to explain to a pudgy child that belly shirts don't work with her figure. I've taken to watching fashion shows with her that show experts advising women of all sizes on how to flatter their figures. (How to Look Good Naked is an interesting new one.)

So, not all obesity is due to parental neglect. Nor is it all due to not eating the right kinds of foods. We haven't been to McDonalds in months. We seldom order pizza out anymore either. I cook at home from scratch - seldom from a box. I don't do a lot of fried foods. One thing I need improvement in is being more physically active with the girls. And, I need to find a way to help my overweight kid with her emotional issues.

And, I know for a fact that poverty causes weight gain. When the foods you can afford are all inexpensive carbs, you are going to get big. And yes, some obesity is due to parental laziness. They don't want to take the time to prepare decent food for themselves or their children. Sometimes I think parents are so indulgent and lazy these days because parenting is so much harder than it used to be. Kids can't be turned out of the house to play all day. They have to be watched and entertained and cooped up given the way society is. If you don't have money for soccer leagues, dance lessons, music lessons, etc., your kid is yours to deal with all the time. So, parking the in front of a television has its attractions.

I guess my point in all this is that you can't judge a book by its cover. If you see a fat family out in the wild, you can't assume it's because they always eat junk. You can't assume that they have the economic means to eat healthier or that that they don't know or care that there is a problem.

[mtomm[$]]

It is funny how each person treats food differently. On my counter right now are 4 sacks of Hershey's Kisses (thanks to my mother the food pusher). The only person who has eaten any or even looked in the sack is me.

How come no one else in my household cares about all of that yummy candy, chocolate no less? This happens often. I'll make up a batch of cookies and I'm the only one that eats them.

None of my children have a weight problem. It really isn't fair because they are not particularly active, nor do they watch what they eat. In fact, I'd say both of my boys are a bit on the too skinny side. I know they day will come when this will change but for now they are blessed. It certainly isn't because of my parenting.

[Helen_B[$]]

Some people just naturally don't have a "sweet tooth" and when they are full, they stop eating. Food for them is just one aspect of their busy lives. What amazes me are the people who lose their appetite when they feels stressed. I wish!

I have to add that for kids who've had a lot of infections requiring antibiotics, they may need help from probiotics like acidophilus to get rid of the craving for sugar that could give them. Nothing says loving like something from the oven when your gut is full of yeast from the effects of amoxicillin.

[eplovejoy]

Thanks everyone, this has been an interesting discussion even though most of it is, strictly speaking, off topic. Nothing here has changed my mind that it is bad parenting to encourage your kids to drink sodas for breakfast, regardless of income and especially if the child is close to 400 pounds. (I wish I were exaggerating.)

As for the part about alerting the authorities, I was mostly playing devil's advocate. It would have been interesting had anyone proposed a mechanism by which strangers could intervene, but I'd probably have objected on civil liberties grounds. It's like so much of parenting: it would be helpful if we could require parents to get licenses, but there is no practical way to do it. For example, I personally believe it is wrong to pierce the ears of anyone younger than at least 10, but that is certainly not a universally held belief.

[mtomm[$]]

eplovejoy said

Nothing here has changed my mind that it is bad parenting to encourage your kids to drink sodas for breakfast,

Rah-roh.

Oh, wait, in asking my 14 yo he assures me that I wouldn't let him have pop for breakfast. I'm glad he thinks I'm a better parent than I think I am.