Obama's Pastor: God Damn America

[rmthunter]

realtraveller said

Until racial bigotry is decried and scorned equally whether preached by black or white, there will be no racial healing.

When I see the right wing going after the white supremacists, and when Republican presidential candidates start campaigning on rational solutions to the problem of illegal immigration rather than "I'll deport them all within three months," when the federal government spends as large a proportion of relief funds for housing for poor blacks in NOLA as it does for harbor expansion (including an exclusive resort complex) in Mobile, when minority voters in Ohio have the same access to the polls that suburban whites do, when I see the inflammatory, anti-American remarks of such as Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, John Hagee, and Rob Parsley (white ministers, let me note) condemned in the same terms as those by Jesse Jackson, Louis Farrakhan, and Jeremiah Wright -- and those who maintain ties with them, such as George W. Bush and John McCain, called to account for those remarks and their relationships with those men, then, I agree, we might be on the road to some healing.

Obama cannot excuse the ignorance and bigotry of his preacher or his own embrace of it for 20 years without consequences.

Sorry -- what does this actually mean? Once again, why does Obama have to take responsibility for what his preacher said? Are you going to hold McCain to account for Hagee and Parsley? Why not? He actively sought their support, knowing full well what they've been saying for years (at least better than he knows the difference between Sunni and Shi'a). And please document that Obama "embraced" Wright's sentiments. Last I heard, he had unequivocally disagreed, rejected, denounced, and otherwise noted his differences with those statements and the attitudes they represent.

His poll numbers are dropping.

Speaking of documentation, let's see some proof. If it were October, I might care. It's March. I'd like for you to offer some actual evidence (besides Rasmussen) to back up that statement. Let's see some trends across a group of polls.

The only polls I've seen indicate that Republicans don't favor Obama. Huge news, that.

[rmthunter]

Under the heading: Obama's Poll Numbers Are Falling:

[thinkerlady[$]]

You know, I was thinking about this thread this morning in church as my pastor was speaking. And although he is my pastor, and spiritual mentor, I don't always agree with everything he says. I don't always listen to every word he says either. Sometimes I walk out of church and don't remember a single thing that was said. Now I am not saying that is right, or wrong, it just is. I like my pastor and my church, and I have no intention of leaving it just because I might disagree with what is said.

That being said, I hope no one would judge my decisions or actions based on his comments, or his actions. We are two different people, who also happen to be Americans, and are entitled to our own comments be they about religion, politics or the weather. I would hope no one would judge me on the comments of my parents, grandparents or friends. I would want to be judged on my comments and actions.

That being said, I don't know how Obama's pastor can possible be a factor in his credibility. It doesn't matter what the spiritual connection is as long a the person (Obama) in this case is a good and honest man. Who are we to judge him, or the merits or demerits of another person.

As far as I have seen, Obama has been straight forward and honest to the American people. He has shown strength and integrity. Opposition keeps looking for something to knock him down. But that is a politics. If we are going to judge Obama on the comments and actions of his pastor, then why don't we judge Hillary on the comments and actions of her husband, while President??

[wivabef]

thinkerlady said

If we are going to judge Obama on the comments and actions of his pastor, then why don't we judge Hillary on the comments and actions of her husband, while President??

Here, here!

Excellent point.

If anything, we should be much more inclined so to do.

Although, those most upset by the Obama Pastor thing are probably eager to judge hill on bill.

[theworm[$]]

Oh for heavens sake!!! Do we want to talk about candidates or what?

Ok - I'll say it! Obama's minister is an ass and Bill Clinton got a friggin blow job and what do either of those things have to do with the two democratic candidates, their stances on issues and their ability to run this country?

I for one don't see what Bill Clinton's idiotic choice to get caught getting a sleezy blow job under the oval office desk has to do with anything happening right now in politics, and I don't see why Obama's minister should - unless Obama has plans to give him a cabinet position.


I, for one, am ready for some change in this country, and while this video is sure to offend many, I think it's message is pretty clear (note: link not safe around kids or at work or for those easily offended by naughty words)

[thinkerlady[$]]

theworm said

I for one don't see what Bill Clinton's idiotic choice to get caught getting a sleezy blow job under the oval office desk has to do with anything happening right now in politics, and I don't see why Obama's minister should - unless Obama has plans to give him a cabinet position.

It doesn't Wormie. That is the point I was trying to make. It is absurd to think that Obama's pastor or Bill Clinton's actions should have anything to do with the candidates. Totally absurd. I will give none of this any credence when deciding my vote, however your video (which was really good by the way) says plenty. We have had too many years of inadequate leadership. I for one would like to see another name besides Clinton or Bush take up residence in the White House.

Right now I am in awe of Obama's display of integrity. I like his postive outlook for America, I like his ideas of change. I like the fact that he doesn't have time for special interest groups, and that he respects the working class American. I like the fact that he did not come from "money".

So no. His pastor's comments or actions don't mean a hill of beans. And neither to Bill's White House activities. But it isn't fair to slam one candidate because of an association with another person, and not slam the other too, who also has associations that are checkered. Personally, I don't think this discussion should even take place.

[theworm[$]]

then you and I are in total agreement!
If someone doesn't like a candidate and can "bash" it him or her on his or her own actions - well, then bash away, but to look to all those around him or her - people that have nothing to do with the campaign - I'm just sick of it. We all have a friend or family member or acquaintance who has done something stupid. Don't judge me on that.
Judge the candidates on what they say and do.
Judge the current administration on what it says and does.
Judge the next administration on what it will say and do.
No administration will be perfect, and whoever wins will give plenty of fodder for criticism - of that I'm sure. If we have to look elsewhere for fodder - maybe thats a really strong endorsement.

[thinkerlady[$]]

I agree with you completely!!! We are in total agreement!!

A candidate should be judged on what HE or SHE says or does, not their family friends, religious leaders, staff members, or whatever. It is high time we start listening to the candidates and stop looking for the ridiculous.

I think Brian said it so dramatically at the beginning of this thread. He summed it up, and I think said it all.

[rmthunter]

Exactly.

It's what I've been saying all along: Obama's pastor's sermons are a non-issue. This is simply politics as practiced by the Rove machine. I've had enough of it.

I think I've said this before: I started off not wildly enthusiastic about Obama. I'm still not wildly enthusiastic, but I'm impressed by his honesty, his intelligence, and his integrity. I have no qualms about supporting him for president, and I can't say that about anyone else who is or has been running. (Except for John Edwards, who should be Obama's Attorney General.)

[wivabef]

thinkerlady said

I agree with you completely!!! We are in total agreement!!

A candidate should be judged on what HE or SHE says or does, not their family friends, religious leaders, staff members, or whatever. It is high time we start listening to the candidates and stop looking for the ridiculous.

I think Brian said it so dramatically at the beginning of this thread. He summed it up, and I think said it all.

I was agreeing, too. My stance hasn't changed since the beginning of this thread, either. We're electing presidents, not pastors.

[drmomentum[$]]

Stanley Fish would appear to agree with you folks about how important this "denouncing and renouncing" business is, regardless of the strained efforts to make this into an issue. I fear that, encouraged by the small bump in attention they got until Obama's speech, they might try to work that strain all the way to November and pop a blood vessel or two. My recommendation? Stock in Preparation H will also be on the rise, so buy now.

This denouncing and renouncing game is simply not serious. It is a media-staged theater, produced not in response to genuine concerns – no one thinks that Obama is unpatriotic or that Clinton is a racist or that McCain is a right-wing bigot – but in response to the needs of a news cycle.

-JP

[drmomentum[$]]

“With all this manure, there must be a pony in here somewhere.”

The racially charged debate over Barack Obama's relationship with his longtime pastor hasn't much changed his close contest against Hillary Clinton, or hurt him against Republican nominee-in-waiting John McCain, according to a new Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll.

[realtraveller]

Now viewed more unfavorable than favorable.

Polls Show Obama Damaged by Reverend Wright - Michael Barone (usnews.com)

[erik_kosberg]

Isn't this something like the third time in a week that Rasmussen has come out with a poll showing Obama tanking as opposed to other polls showing him doing rather well?

[rmthunter]

Once again, show me more than Rasmussen -- not generally the most reliable indicator, especially where Democrats are involved. As I recall, Rasmussen is generally an outlier, and while I'm sure their polls make Republicans feel good, they don't really tell us much -- except what makes Republican feels good.

[realtraveller]

The NBC Poll admits that it oversampled African Americans (for reasons that aren't clear).

Obviously this would skew the poll results in Obama's favor.

[erik_kosberg]

This is why and why it doesn't skew the poll.

[MrsNormanMaine[$]]

The other thing that all this shows is the stunning ignorance of the media regarding African-American worship and the role of the preacher in African-American churches.

MNM

[erik_kosberg]

Hart/McInturff, the group that conducts the NBC News-Wall Street Journal poll, explains what "oversample" means.

[drmomentum[$]]

In short, oversampling is making sure you have an accurate read of a significant subset of the electorate in a way which does not skew the whole poll.

In fact, the individual black voter in that poll actually has less effect on the overall poll than the individual white voter, because the oversampling method reduces the weight of the individual black voter by an amount determined by the amount of oversample and the proportion of black votes to the electorate.

Or, you could just ignore all that and say you don't like the poll because the Wall Street Journal is a liberal rag that is pulling for Obama.

-JP