Obama's Pastor: God Damn America

[mjfrombuffalo[$]]

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. said

At 11:00 on Sunday morning when we stand and sing and Christ has no east or west, we stand at the most segregated hour in this nation.

This was in his 1963 speech at Western Michigan University. I am sorry to say that I don't think it's changed much. While it may have begun as institutional segregation (like Freemasonry), it continues now as self-selection (again, like Freemasonry) - there's no black church I know of who would kick me out, and no white church that would kick out my husband, but churches grew up with different traditions, rituals, manners of worship, and populations, to the point where styles diverged severely and people not brought up in that church's cultural base may not feel comfortable - and that goes both ways. My husband's Catholic church is very diverse; my much smaller church is amazingly diverse for its size. But when we had a preacher from a traditionally black church guest preach, her friends came and called out "Amens" from the back while she yelled passionately at the lecturn, and us stiff white Presbyterians weren't quite sure what we should do with this - calling out "Amens" didn't feel authentic to us. On the flip size, I'm sure the pastor's friends felt a bit stifled when we were stiffly rising and reciting the Apostle's Creed in perfect unison or singing "Great is Thy Faithfulness." Neither style is bad, they just are what they are, and not everyone's going to feel comfortable with the style of the other - and why would you go somewhere you're not comfortable to worship?

[rmthunter]

I'm sure you can find a justification for segregation in the Bible. You can find justification for just about anything in the Bible if you really, really want to.

I do want to point out, however, the the discussion of black churches and white churches is germane if only because there are deep cultural differences between blacks and whites in America and the churches are one of the places where those differences are most apparent. I understand that in the context of black churches, Wright's rhetoric would not be considered inflammatory or racist or any of the other labels that it's been saddled with. As a point of historical fact, churches have been segregated and have developed along separate lines because of it. It matters, and it affects how we understand things like this.

[magenta321]

I guess I feel that maybe a church is "predominately" one race or another, but, not a "white or black" church. To shorten it to "white church" or "black church" may be easier to say, but, I think it's unfair and sets things backwards. We've come a long way since MLK's speech, IMHO. Maybe it still is the "most segregated hour" still. But I still think we've come far enough to stop thinking of everything as "white or black." Just my two cents.

[mjfrombuffalo[$]]

The term may be more significant than a mere convenient shorthand. Yesterday at a meeting of executive directors of child welfare agencies, there was discussion about the "minority agencies" = agencies founded by minority communities, led by minority executive directors, and with minority governance (most of the board is from a minority). One of the white ED's brought up that he thought we'd moved away from calling any agency a "minority agency," which made one of the minority agency's ED's speak up. Eloquently, she said she was not going to give up the term "minority agency" because it would be ignoring the prime reason for her agency's founding in the first place - they formed in Harlem back in the days when child welfare was done by big white-led agencies who didn't want to take in black kids. They were the first agency specifically created to meet the needs of their minority community, and they were not going to ignore that significant piece of their history, and plan to continue to say, with pride, that they are a "minority agency." Even though their client base has diversified, they are minority-led and minority-governed and are very proud of that - especially since most of the executive directors and boards of child welfare agencies in NY are white, most are men, and most are over the age of 50.

Black churches probably feel some of that same sense of pride in their history and their place in culture when they call themselves "black churches." At least I haven't heard any black people bristling at the term itself as of yet, and there's been ample opportunity for them to do so lately.

[rmthunter]

To add to MJ's comments, I don't think it's a matter of the race of the membership so much as the culture from which the institution -- a church, a welfare agency, a health center -- comes.

These institutions are outgrowths of particular cultures, and developed to meet the needs of those cultures. It's just that those cultural norms don't necessarily translate very well.

[mtbat]

No one on this board reads the National Enquirer.

Only in line at the checkout I used to love the WWN-I always wanted to use it to paper a bathroom with-it was so out of this world bizzare

[wivabef]

mtbat said

Only in line at the checkout I used to love the WWN-I always wanted to use it to paper a bathroom with-it was so out of this world bizzare

Me too! I had a bunch saved up to do just that!!! THe Hillary Alien Bill love triangle one was one of my favorite. Also, the Dick Cheney is a robot cover that has him opening up his chest to reveal why he keeps surviving.

[mjfrombuffalo[$]]

I got turned off when they started Bat Boy and the Osama/Sadaam Are Gay Lovers bit. But in college, we had some journalism majors (like me) who would bring in a copy to practice our radio/tv news reading. That was a hoot.

[erik_kosberg]

Best WWN headline: Preacher Explodes in Pulpit

[eplovejoy]

Wait a minute. Are you folks suggesting the WWN couldn't be trusted? I saw the article headlined Amazing Photographic Evidence! JFK Committed Suicide and it was absolutely convincing.

_____

Is anyone else surprised that Obama's standing has apparently been damaged less by his longstanding tacit approval of Wright's comments than Clinton's has by her misstatement about sniper fire in Bosnia?

[ms_n]

A little late to add, but still a nice interview:

Bill Moyers Journal . Watch & Listen | PBS

[realtraveller]

Since the Reverend Wright story came out, Obama has won only two primaries. North Carolina, due to his 90% support from blacks who were 30% of the Dem primary voters and Oregon, whose Democrats are very far left. He's lost Ohio, West Virginia, Kentucky, Pennsylvania, Indiana and the Texas primary. No matter what kind of spin they try to put on it, Rev. Wright is a huge problem for him.

[rmthunter]

Oh, brother.

And of course being black had nothing to do with it. Nor have the Republican smears about Obama being Muslim. (And yes, there are people who really believe that, including some in, believe it or not, Kentucky and Pennsylvania.)

Let's see some back-up on the assertion about Wright being such a problem.

[mjfrombuffalo[$]]

rmthunter said

Oh, brother.

And of course being black had nothing to do with it. Nor have the Republican smears about Obama being Muslim. (And yes, there are people who really believe that, including some in, believe it or not, Kentucky and Pennsylvania.)

Let's see some back-up on the assertion about Wright being such a problem.

And refusing to say the pledge. Don't forget that. (Got that email again this past Thursday.)

[brian_igo]

Bob and MJ - you'll want to bookmark this:

[mjfrombuffalo[$]]

Well, one technicality - no Senator takes his oath on a Bible. The oath of office is given in the Senate chambers, with no Bibles or Korans or Torahs or anything. The pictues you see of them standing with an officiant, a holy text, and their families are publicity pictures taken after the real oath was done en masse in the chambers.

(scroll down past the halfway point)

[realtraveller]

rmthunter said

Oh, brother.

And of course being black had nothing to do with it. Nor have the Republican smears about Obama being Muslim. (And yes, there are people who really believe that, including some in, believe it or not, Kentucky and Pennsylvania.)

Let's see some back-up on the assertion about Wright being such a problem.

Source: Several Rasmussen polls conducted on the subject of Rev. Wright.

[brian_igo]

realtraveller said

Source: Several Rasmussen polls conducted on the subject of Rev. Wright.

You sure about that? The only thing I found about Wright at Rasmussen's site was this op-ed written by neo-con Micheal Barone, who cites unnamed polls but doesn't show any numbers. (Big surprise.) Even in that column, he only cites exit polls from WV and Kentucky - nothing about the other states you mentioned.

Is Wright a "huge problem"? If so, the evidence is damned hard to find. Here are his approve/disapprove numbers across several polls going back for almost a year. They have consistently been in the high fifties/low sixties since the first of the year. Or look through here for polling on Wright - the last example I can find is from early May. (And Polling Report does include Rasmussen.)

Got any links?

[rmthunter]

And of course the Rasmussen poll took into account all the other factors we mentioned.

Did it also take into account, in light of the reaction to Jeremiah Wright, that 10% of Americans still believe that Obama's a Muslim? Or that 18% believe the sun revolves around the earth? (Polls are so much fun.)

[conradd]

At this rate, he'll have distanced himself from half the clergy in Chicago. I really hope that this church loses its tax exemption if it ever had one.

[rmthunter]

Since the sermon was slamming a Democrat, the IRS probably won't bother. It only investigates churches for activities the administration doesn't like.

(Pfleger, by the way, is a widely admired social justice activist in Chicago, and somewhat of a firebrand.)