Settling an Estate

**mjfrombuffalo**[$] · #1 02-16-2006, 12:58 PM

I've got a few questions regarding settling my dad's estate. So far, I've been involved with two family deaths (mom, grandmother). In Mom's case, I don't know what Dad had to do to settle her affairs, but he didn't do much - didn't even take the steps to have her name removed from a few small stock holdings. When Gram died, I was her guardian and she had no assets, so other than the guardianship filing with the surrogate's court to end the guardianship, I was done.

Now I'm working on my dad's estate. My aunt, who had Power of Attorney since she was in the same town and I was at the other end of the state, had been working with a lawyer all along and has kept with him for settling the estate. As his only child, and since he had no will, the few assets he has go to me, including the afore-mentioned stocks that still have Mom's name on them. The attorney sent me the forms to allow him and my aunt to do the needed stuff to transfer the stocks to me... and the letter said it's going to run somewhere between $1000 and $3000 in attorney's fees to settle everything. Dad's cash assets are less than $1,000 so the balance would have to be paid by me.

My questions: What, exactly, absolutely requires an attorney when it comes to settling an estate? And how much of a PITA would it be for me to do this stuff instead of paying the attorney to do it? Anyone got some experience with this?

**theworm**[$] · #2 02-16-2006, 01:16 PM

I'm trying to remember when my MIL died. We had to go to the court house (which probably means you would have to go to the court up there) and get the proof of death. They have all sorts of forms you need for the probate. It was a pain, but not impossible. I'm pretty sure that it has to be done locally - so the question is what is it worth to you to not have to go there?

**mjfrombuffalo**[$] · #3 02-16-2006, 01:31 PM

I already have a copy of the certified death certificate and just ordered a few more from NYS Department of Health - no court house trip necessary for proof of death. I don't mind going up there if I had to, I have friends to visit

The big thing seems to be, right now, transferring the stocks from Dad's name to mine.

**jgibson2**[$] · #4 02-16-2006, 01:37 PM

My husband's mother didn't own any stock, but he settled things sans attorney. She didn't even have a will AFAIK, which only presented a problem when he wanted to sell some property last year which still had her name on the deed (and his, thank goodness). The attorney who handled the sale took care of that at no extra charge, since we weren't paying her and the purchaser was a friend of hers. Don't think it could have been too much of a PITA, hubby never even balanced his checkbooks.

**theworm**[$] · #5 02-16-2006, 01:37 PM

I think you still have to go to the court up there for the probate.
There is a lot of good info here.

Quote:

Probate usually occurs in the appropriate court in the State and County where the deceased permanently resided at the time of his or her death. Such courts go by different names in various states. In many states the court is simply called the Probate Court. However, in some states they go by different names. In New York, for example, the probate court is known as the Surrogate’s Court while in California it is the Superior Court, Probate Division.

The probate court usually handles all the personal property the deceased owned, plus all of the real estate that the deceased owned that is located in that same state.

Quote:

While there is no requirement to use a lawyer, probate is a rather formalistic procedure. One minor omission, one failure to send Great Aunt Tillie a copy of the petition, or a missed deadline, can cause everything to come to a grinding halt or expose everyone to liability.

**AuntieEmma**[$] · #6 02-16-2006, 01:59 PM

Even though you're not the executor, this info might be useful:

Quote:

Nolo Press said

Must an executor hire a lawyer?

Not always. Doing a good job requires persistence, and attention to tedious detail, but not necessarily a law degree. If assets must go through probate court, the process is mainly paperwork. In the vast majority of cases, there are no disputes that require a decision by a judge, and the executor may never see the inside of a courtroom. It may even be possible to do everything by mail.

An executor should definitely consider handling the paperwork without a lawyer if he or she is the main beneficiary, the deceased person's property consists of common kinds of assets (house, bank accounts, insurance), the will seems straightforward, and good self-help materials are at hand.

If, however, the estate has many types of property, significant tax liability, or potential disputes among inheritors, an executor may want some help.

There are two ways for an executor to get help from a lawyer:

-- Hire a lawyer to act as a "coach," answering legal questions as they come up. The lawyer might also do some research, look over documents before the executor files them, or prepare an estate tax return.

-- Turn the probate over to the lawyer. If the executor just doesn't want to deal with the probate process, a lawyer can do everything. The lawyer will be paid out of the estate. In most states, lawyers charge by the hour ($150-$200 is common) or charge a lump sum. But in a few places, including Arkansas, California, Delaware, Hawaii, Iowa, Missouri, Montana, and Wyoming, state law authorizes the lawyer to take a certain percentage of the gross value of the deceased person's estate unless the executor makes a written agreement calling for less. An executor can probably find a competent lawyer who will agree to a lower fee.

Can an executor get help from someone besides a lawyer?

Yes. Here are some other sources of information and assistance.

-- The court. Probate court clerks commonly answer basic questions about court procedure, but they staunchly avoid saying anything that could possibly be construed as "legal advice." Some courts, however, have lawyers on staff who look over probate documents, point out errors in the papers, and explain how to fix them.

-- Other professionals. For certain tasks, an executor may be better off hiring an accountant or appraiser than a lawyer. For example, a CPA may be a big help on estate tax matters.

-- Paralegals. Many lawyers delegate probate paperwork to paralegals. Now, in some areas of the country, experienced paralegals have set up shop to help people directly with probate paperwork. These paralegals don't offer legal advice; they just prepare documents as the executor instructs them, and file them with the court. To find a probate paralegal, an executor can look online or in the Yellow Pages under "Legal Document Preparation" or "Attorney Services." The executor should hire someone only if that person has substantial experience in this field and provides good references.

http://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/Obje...2BC2B/309/FAQ/

Transferring stock shouldn't be too difficult. It sounds like the attorney already sent you the forms and now you just have to mail them in? But if there's more to it than that, you can call the stock brokerage company for more info on what to do next.

**mjfrombuffalo**[$] · #7 02-16-2006, 02:08 PM

Thanks, Auntie! the form he sent me is to give my aunt the ability to file paperwork relating to the estate - "appointment of administrator."

Just spoke with the lawyer who does not seem at all interested in being a coach for me (which would've been nice) and did everything he could to talk me out of doing this by myself. I remained noncommittal. It just seems so stupid that in a case where there's about $2,000 in assets, I have to pay a lawyer $2,000 in fees. I even told the guy I might just walk away from the stock altogether because really, what's the point? No executor since there's no will, and NYS law makes me the default beneficiary... so why is this such a big fat hairy deal?

CurtisEdmonds · #8 02-16-2006, 04:05 PM

I think you answered your own question. If the only assets in the estate are stock certificates, and you are the default beneficiary, that should end the story right there. If you can get the stock moved into your name, you ought not to have any more hassles.

Probate is really only a big deal where there's lots of money (and estate taxes) to deal with, or where there's real estate. Even the real estate is more of a chain-of-title issue. If there's multiple heirs and they argue all the time, that's another issue, but not really a legal one outside of the will contest experience.

**mjfrombuffalo**[$] · #9 02-16-2006, 04:33 PM

Do I still have to go to Surrogate's Court to transfer the stock certificates, or can I go right to the company? (Folks didn't use a broker, they were employee stock purchases.)

**pippadaisy**[$] · #10 02-16-2006, 05:22 PM

We've been able to get the name changed on stock certificates through our broker.

**jgibson2**[$] · #11 02-17-2006, 02:38 PM

Call the company first. If they can't help you call a LOCAL broker and have Auntie mail you (certified) the stock certificates. I bet you can get it done without a lawyer and why should the lawyer get the whole estate?

**AuntieEmma**[$] · #12 02-17-2006, 03:27 PM

You could also try calling the employee benefits department of your father's employer.

**mjfrombuffalo**[$] · #13 02-17-2006, 03:37 PM

Thanks, but nah, they don't deal with that, they deal with the other stuff like the pension and life insurance. Besides, most of the stocks are from my mother's job from the 1950's at a company that has since split into a dozen other companies

**jgibson2**[$] · #14 02-17-2006, 03:53 PM

Quote:

AuntieEmma said

You could also try calling the employee benefits department of your father's employer.

I forgot that the stock certificates were an employee purchase. I bet they can help!

**mjfrombuffalo**[$] · #15 02-17-2006, 04:42 PM

The return addresses of the dividend checks were the companies themselves, not a brokerage firm, and the attorney says there are original certificates for most of them. (I haven't seen those yet)

**AuntieEmma**[$] · #16 02-17-2006, 04:45 PM

Oops -- I had deleted my message (because on second thought, it looked like you had said there were actual certificates), but you had already answered it.

Anyway, have you tried calling the companies themselves? They should have something like "Investors Relations" offices, which might be able to help you, or at least point you in the right direction.

**mjfrombuffalo**[$] · #17 09-30-2007, 10:42 PM

Yeah, so I ditched the lawyer and did nothing. Now I'm finally filling out the forms. I *do* have to file with Surrogate's Court to get the papers to show the companies to validate that I get the stocks. But it's a $1 filing fee with the court so that's no biggie.

Now my issue is that the stocks are in both my dad's and mom's names. So just for future reference, if you are a joint owner of something like, say, a stock, and the other owner dies, it automatically goes to you (which is a good thing, you don't have to go through court to transfer ownership). But you need to do something to get the other owner's name off the property before YOU die, or your heirs have to go through a paper maze in Surrogate's Court to administer *both* your names off!

mj
now filling out forms to get a death certificate from 1985

**theworm**[$] · #18 09-30-2007, 10:55 PM

**mtomm**[$] · #19 09-30-2007, 10:59 PM

**mjfrombuffalo**[$] · #20 09-30-2007, 11:05 PM

Yeah, it's a PITA. A bunch of little piddly paperwork steps - none are onerous of themselves, but adding them all up is a big UGH all right. Still, I'd rather do it myself than pay the $3,000 for the attorney to do it, even with finding out the stocks are worth about $7,000 (thanks to GM's resolving the strike fast).

**hadassahchana**[$] · #21 09-30-2007, 11:08 PM

But good for you for figuring out how to do it yourself.

**mjfrombuffalo**[$] · #22 09-23-2008, 03:54 PM

Advice for anyone settling a small estate:

1) Order death certificates. Lots of them. 10 is a good number to start with. Then order some more.
2) "small stock holdings" are big PITAs if the decedant was a packrat who saved every Jumble he completed from the daily newspaper and filed them, labled and indexed, for about 10 years but somehow didn't manage to hold on to any original stock certificates.
3) A couple shares of stock bought in 1957 are likely to be dozens of shares of stock in each of about 25 companies, all of whom have their own paperwork you have to complete.
4) If all of these stocks are being handled and managed by one security firm (like Computershare), this does not necessarily make your life any easier. For example, if you call the number for the stock from Company A, the person on the end of the line may not be able to help you at all with your shares from Company B.