Deep Thoughts on judgment and forgiveness

[mjfrombuffalo[$]]

Today was "Gifts of Women Sunday" in our church, where the women lead the service and there's a sort of "woman of the year" award presented and the like. We women of the choir sang a song I'd never heard or sung before. The text was from a prayer reportedly found on a piece of wrapping paper in the women’s section of Ravensbruck Concentration Camp.

"O Lord, remember not only the men and women of goodwill, but also those of ill will. But do not remember the suffering they have inflicted upon us. Remember instead the fruits we have bought, thanks to this suffering: our comradeship, our loyalty, our humility, the courage, the generosity, the greatness of heart which has grown out of this. And when they come to judgment, let the fruits that we have borne be their forgiveness."

I'd never heard it before and I'm still not sure where I am with it, but it struck me as pretty powerful (and ecumencial!) and so I wanted to share.

[hadassahchana[$]]

Wow. I'll think about it for a while, since I'm not sure whether or not I agree with it all, but just, wow. What an amazing piece.

[lynnzop[$]]

That's pretty powerful stuff, MJ. More forgiving than most of us could ever be, sorry to say.

[AuntieEmma[$]]

I would say that forgiveness is not appropriate in that situation. I would also disagree about how ecumenical is the notion that forgiveness is the ideal to strive for in every situation.

[theworm[$]]

What Cindy said.
I think that for a Jew it is hard to think of anyone in a concentration camp and keep unemotional about it. So...part of this sort of makes me thing , but then I think of what we read on Yom Kippur, and how we pray for everyone - not just ourselves, and not just the Jewish community, and I think....while I'm not quite ready to be there, that is sort of what it about. I don't have a problem with the whole idea of forgiveness, but the idea of the "fruits" that were borne is somewhat problematic and I have to question myself as to why. I know that I've been through bad times - not anywhere near the scope of concentration camp and hatered bad times, and have thought of how much I learned or gained. And I'm grateful for what I learned and gained but, if I had been given a choice would have preferred ignorance.
The words are powerful, and certainly something to think about. Honestly, I think my reaction would be less dramatic had I not known the words came from a concentration camp.

[eris esoteric]

The tragedy of the human condition... we almost only reach our greatest heights when confronted without greatest depths.

[Prepoia[$]]

I find it more meaningful and powerful because while I like to think that I learn from my burdens I often lack the depth of character to be forgiving of all that others have done to me. To think that someone in a concentration camp could be so forgiving makes me even more humble and makes me want to strive toward being more forgiving and for stepping back and taking a look at the fruits of my own personal burdens and bad times. I would think that you, who are Jewish, would feel a sense of pride in what this says about your people.

[AuntieEmma[$]]

The Jewish notion of forgiveness, as I understand it, focuses on what people need to do in order to be forgiven after causing harm. You need to be sincerely remorseful for the harm you have done, and you need to try to make things right with the person or people you have hurt -- only then can you ask for forgiveness from the people involved and from God. The people who were harmed, at that point, are not supposed to be stubborn -- if you are sincere in wanting to make thing right, they should go ahead and forgive you. But the focus is not on the forgivers, but rather on the ones who are seeking forgiveness, on what they need to do, on their turning away from sin, on their taking the steps that will lead them to turn over a new leaf, to turn into the kind of people who will not be tempted, the next time the opportunity arises, to repeat the same sin.

In Christianity, as I understand it, the emphasis is on the forgiver, and forgiving itself is an important virtue that is believed to be good for the soul of the person who forgives. So that's a different focus. One view, as I understand it, focuses on the person seeking forgiveness, and the other on the person who is doing the forgiving. Both of these make sense in their own context, but they are different.

As for the concentration camp story, I don't see it as a particular virtue to forgive someone who has committed monstrous acts and has neither shown any remorse nor refrained from continuing to carry out more of the same atrocities. I understand why people admire the woman in the story who wrote that prayer, but to me that admiration reflects a view seen mostly through the lens of a Christian perspective, not a universal one. So that's my only objection -- to the extent that "ecumenical" means, "oh of course everybody would see things the same way I do here," I disagree.

Also, for what it's worth:

BBC - History - Is Forgiveness Possible? A Jewish Perspective

[AuntieEmma[$]]

Prepoia said

I would think that you, who are Jewish, would feel a sense of pride in what this says about your people.

Well, we don't know if the story is true, and if it is true, if the woman at the center of the story was Jewish. But since the point of the story appears to be to illustrate a uniquely Christian viewpoint, it doesn't seem to me to have much to do with Jewish pride one way or the other. Any more than a story meant to illustrate for Buddhists the important Buddhist virtue of non-attachment, by showing a Christian character in the story practicing non-attachment under the most difficult situation imaginable, would necessarily make Christians feel proud about what that says about them as a people. It's not that Christians (as far as I know) necessarily think that non-attachment is bad; it's just that it's irrelevant to how they view themselves. I don't think that Christians would mind if Buddhists told this story about them to other Buddhists, but would Christians want the Buddhists to tell them how they, the Christians, should react to the story?

[Prepoia[$]]

I'm sorry. You are right. I was judging the behaviors based on my Christian outlook and beliefs. So, I guess....that it should be considered no big thing then? Amazing how the song so appeals to the Christian but not the Jewish beliefs/religion even to the point of it being attributed to a concentration camp citizen.

[AuntieEmma[$]]

Prepoia said

I'm sorry. You are right. I was judging the behaviors based on my Christian outlook and beliefs. So, I guess....that it should be considered no big thing then? Amazing how the song so appeals to the Christian but not the Jewish beliefs/religion even to the point of it being attributed to a concentration camp citizen.

? I don't understand what you are saying.

[Prepoia[$]]

I just meant that the lyrics are being appreciated by a Christian Church (like MJ's) and Christians are appreciating the attribute of forgiveness and the depth of the cost of forgiving by someone (a Jewish concentration camp resident who supposedly wrote the words.)

However when I stated that the Jewish people must be proud of the Jewish person writing these words, you or someone stated that forgiveness was a Christian value with different emphasis by the Jewish religion. Therefore, I apologized stating that it is true....I viewed and commented on how proud they should be based on my Christian religious values not on Jewish ones.

I hope that's better and clearer

[AuntieEmma[$]]

Prepoia said

I just meant that the lyrics are being appreciated by a Christian Church (like MJ's) and Christians are appreciating the attribute of forgiveness and the depth of the cost of forgiving by someone (a Jewish concentration camp resident who supposedly wrote the words.)

However when I stated that the Jewish people must be proud of the Jewish person writing these words, you or someone stated that forgiveness was a Christian value with different emphasis by the Jewish religion. Therefore, I apologized stating that it is true....I viewed and commented on how proud they should be based on my Christian religious values not on Jewish ones.

I hope that's better and clearer

Ok, thanks.

[AuntieEmma[$]]

Also, the notion that the women gained something in terms of friendship, courage, etc., because of their suffering strikes me as a little strange, and also most likely historically inaccurate -- at least from accounts of the concentration camps that I have read, where people were much more likely to fall apart under the pressure, rather than become stronger. Not that it affects the story's impact or moral if it is accurate or not, but that's just what struck me.

[mtomm[$]]

Wow! I am completely overwhemed even to the point of not sleeping last night thinking about this. That concept of forgiveness completely took me by surprise!

My first reaction was just like Sandy's. Thank you, Auntie, for giving a whole different perspective.

[hadassahchana[$]]

I've read a lot of accounts of the Holocaust- the series is called 'Holocaust Diaries', all written by religious survivors. They show in great detail that those who survived relied on each other for strength, and did form strong friendships which helped them to survive.

As for forgiveness, it isn't just a Christian notion. Yes, the emphasis is on the one who needs to ask forgiveness and his relationship woth God,primarily anyway. However, one is also expected to try and make amends to an person who one has harmed. In fact, one of the things we do before Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement, as in atonement for all sins) is to write each other lettrers or call, to ask forgiveness for anything we might have done to hurt anyone during the previous year.

[hadassahchana[$]]

So, having said all that, do you think there are things which we cannot forgive? I do think so. I don't mean that in a 'shoot them all and let God sort it out', but I do believe that having a justice system here is an important step, and I also think that forgiving people like the Nazis is not something we as humans can do.

[mtomm[$]]

No, actually I believe the opposite.

This is the scripture that kept me up all night. I hate to quote LDS only scripture but it is what I AM so bear with me:

Doctrine and Covenants 64:8-11 (the D&C is revelation given to Joseph Smith that he kept records of.) I think it is significant that this is given to Joseph because he was someone who was martyred for living the life he did.

" 8 My disciples, in days of old, sought occasion against one another and forgave not one another in their hearts; and for this evil they were afflicted and sorely chastened.
9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.
10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.
11 And ye ought to say in your hearts—let God judge between me and thee, and reward thee according to thy deeds."



I believe we are capable of it but only within our own faithfulness.

[emeleel]

hadassahchana said

So, having said all that, do you think there are things which we cannot forgive? I do think so. I don't mean that in a 'shoot them all and let God sort it out', but I do believe that having a justice system here is an important step, and I also think that forgiving people like the Nazis is not something we as humans can do.

Yes and no. As a *human*, yes, there are things that are unbelievebly hard to forgive. A Nazi would be a person that would be hard to forgive. A murderer. A rapist. Pedophile, etc.

However, as a Christian human, I have to try IF that person is repentive of what they did. (Okay, repentive is probably not a word. Sue me. ) In fact, more than try, I must forgive. I believe that God understands our weakness in this area, though, and if we ask for help, He will grant it and help us work toward forgiving even the most horrific thing. If we don't try, though, God will not forgive us our sins, because we are sinning by not forgiving - and if we're stuck in one sin, the rest just kind of "back up" behind it, so to speak.

I think one of the big questions that a lot of people have is should we seek to forgive the person who doesn't feel sorry for what they did, and has not asked for forgiveness? I don't think it's a sin to not forgive that. All the New Testament scriptures that I can think of (and glance at a quick list at Crosswalk) speaks to forgiveness of those who have asked for it. We must forgive those people. But if they don't ask? I don't think there is one whit of sin attached to not forgiving that person. However, we must still maintain an attitude of humility and love, not wishing ill on that person. Justice, perhaps, assuming it's a civilly punishable offense, but not outside the bounds of what is justice. We must be careful not to let hatred enter our hearts because that is a sin. But I think it is possible to not forgive someone's offense against you while not hating them - hard though it would be.

Even though I don't think it's wrong to not forgive the person who hasn't asked for it, I think it's "more Christian" if you want to put it that way, to pray on behalf of that person and ask that they be led to a realization of what they did so that they can correct it. That way, their trespass is taken care of, the thorn of what they did is no longer bothering you, and they won't do the same to someone else, hopefully - everybody wins, that way.