Pairs Skating Medals

vania · #1 02-12-2002, 09:05 AM

Anyone catch the controversial pairs figure skating finals last night?? Thoughts??

I'm leaning towards thinking that the judges were a bit biased and UNobjective (who else caught which countries gave the gold to the Russians?). Is this fair in an Olympic event? What can be done to avoid it in the future??

Or... does anyone think the Russians really deserved to win?? Personally, (though I'm no skating expert) I just don't see how it's fair that the guy who stumbles and almost falls gets the gold, while the pair who had no mistakes gets silver.

v.

kurt_messick · #2 02-12-2002, 09:39 AM

I watched the show in a restaurant last night. I was surprised by that too.

sylvanb · #3 02-12-2002, 10:11 AM

What a heartbreaker - condolences to our Canadian friends.

The Russian pair was extremely pretty - in the short program I thought I'd never seen anything more lovely. But Jamie and David were just wonderful last night, and absolutely deserved the gold.

I bet the judges are going to get a lot of grief. I hope so, anyway

It was great theater, though!

**MrsNormanMaine**[$] · #4 02-12-2002, 10:32 AM

Figure skating judging has never been about who is absolute best that night. There's a lot of national biases, memories of prior competitions etc. etc. that comes into it.

If you think back to Albertville and the men's competition, Paul Wylie was flawless and the Russian (Petrenko?) was not but Wylie wasn't expected to do well so the Russian still took home the gold.

MNM

**conradd** · #5 02-12-2002, 11:02 AM

I thought it was very unfair. There were a number of mistakes made by the Russian pairs. While I know that traditionally (as MNM said) there has been more to scoring ice skating than immediate performance, it's heartbreaking to see the results of an unjustice like last night's performance.

Deb

Grouch · #6 02-12-2002, 12:03 PM

Yes, absolutely heartbreaking.
If the Russians hadn't had what the commenblabbers like to call "bawbles," the gold would have been justified. Their program had grace and beauty--like watching ballet on ice.

Sale and Pelltier, however, showed more strength, wit and creativity (in both the long and short programs). Some of their moves were--to me--completely unexpected and breathtaking. Like the commenblabbers, I thought they had the gold around their necks when they came off the ice.

For what it's worth, I thought the American pair (Ina and Zimmerman) skated a terrific program, too. It would have been nice to see them get at least the bronze.

quasar · #7 02-12-2002, 12:20 PM

They do this all the time. It's a problem in any judged event, but particularly figure skating and gymnastics. It used to be worse before they got rid of the compulsory figures.

Think Liz Manley and Katarina Witt in 1988. That was even more agregious than this one. As MNM already pointed out Paul Wylie got hit in 1992. G&G didn't even come close to matching the other medalists in 1994.

It's part of figure skating. It sucks. It's been better recently, so perhaps that's why it's a bit more shocking than usual, but it's always been there. Perhaps too because it happened to two pairs this year instead of one this year it's worse (Ina and Zimmerman were downgraded and the Russian pair upgraded in the long skate and there was a bit of interesting marking in the short too).

Janice

vania · #8 02-12-2002, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by quasar
(Ina and Zimmerman were downgraded and the Russian pair upgraded in the long skate and there was a bit of interesting marking in the short too).

Janice

I TOTALLY agree. Ina and Zimmerman skated near perfectly (at least in the long skate that I saw last night), while the Russians who were placed against them seemed almost clumsy and stiff in comparison. I couldn't BELIEVE they were ranked 4th!

I would love to see an official inquiry of some sort into the marks that were given last night.

v.

vonboob · #9 02-12-2002, 01:41 PM

Just wait for the dance competition! The top Canadian Shae-Lynn Bourne and Victor Kraatz are already placed 5th... Maybe they should go home: in Nagano the fix was evident, now it simply stinks.

some details

That is another reason not to watch TV...

kurt_messick · #10 02-12-2002, 05:54 PM

The Canadians are calling for an investigation:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...skating_fig_14

Also, there's already an online petition protesting.

http://www.petitiononline.com/olympi...tion-sign.html

wivabef · #11 02-12-2002, 06:49 PM

Sale and Pelletier were screwed, no doubt.

However.

The judging is far more complex than most understand. The scores from the short program figure into it. The weighting judge by judge figures into it. For example, had the Chinese couple landed that quad, it may have pushed them into number one in the long program by some of the judges, hence repositioning the ranking of the Canadian and Russian couple and perhaps making the Canadians the winners.

Just wait until the dance program, as someone said. And, in the women's competition -- watch how Maria Butryskaya wins a medal of some sort even though she spends half of the time wiping the ice with her butt. Even my six year old says, "Mommy, is that the one who falls down all the time? Why did she win?"

The classic shot last night was when the cameras panned the judges while they were being booed. Most of them sat there with an arrogant puss and a rather large stick up their patoot. One judge was fuming -- shaking his head in disgust.

dijinn · #12 02-13-2002, 12:49 AM

I agree with 96% of all those who took that NBC online poll which asked which couple should have won the gold when they said that Jamie Sale and David Pelletier should have won. Seeing the couples perform the same (tricks? stunts? - help me out here) compulsory elements side by side, twirl by twirl did it for me... there was no comparison. None.

Russia, Poland and the Ukraine were three of the judges that scored the Russians higher. (coincidence?) The two others were from China and France. Costas mentioned tonight that the USA Today had a quote on the record from the French Judge (I have looked all over for that article online, and cannot find it) that there was an agreement for a vote swap between that night's event and the dance program I do believe. So it will be interesting to see if anything comes of that or not.

I am certain the tenacious Canadians will root these rumors out. I hope that something official can be done to swap the gold over to Jamie Sale and David Pelletier who should have won it in the first place.

Dij
who is still tough and manly even though he accidently watched a night of pairs skating... dangit.

vania · #13 02-13-2002, 08:41 AM

Latest update: the French judge (the uptight looking one wearing the fur) has admitted she made a deal with the other judges to vote Russian, in exchange for a French vote during ice dancing.

I haven't looked up a link for this story, but I"m sure you could find one anywhere.

I'm really irritated by this as a spectator, but imagine how the athletes feel: why bother showing up and skating if what you do isn't going to make a difference anyway?

This is awful.

v.

Dani257 · #14 02-13-2002, 09:13 PM

I agree that it should have been the Canadians. Their program was near flawless (in fact, I can't think of any flaws). Also, Ina and Zimmerman were scored too low as well.

I'm just glad the audience didn't take out its frustrations on the Russian team.

dijinn · #15 02-13-2002, 11:03 PM

No no no -
They are being diplomatic. Now it seems that the Canadians are asking for a dual gold. I think they should go all the way. Not to punish the Russians, but really they won that competition going away.

dual golds shaw

Dij

kuuleimomi · #16 02-14-2002, 12:00 PM

I'm just wondering, does anyone here know the difference between marks for technical merit and performance?

Though French judge is a new twist, I'm just dying to see how far this will go.

Quote:

Originally posted by MNM
and the Russian (Petrenko?)

It was Petrenko and he was and still is the Ukrainian.

Finn

nicholmere · #17 02-14-2002, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kuuleimomi
I'm just wondering, does anyone here know the difference between marks for technical merit and performance?

Skate Canada's website has this page of information:
How Do Judges Judge?

kuuleimomi · #18 02-14-2002, 12:08 PM

Kathy, I know the difference.

I was wondering about people who are posting in this thread.

Canadians obviously won technical merit, but lost in the performance. And no mistake of Russians could take away their performance [well, technical mistake, that is]. That's my point.

Finn

vania · #19 02-14-2002, 12:46 PM

But.... one of the judges (French?) gave the Russians a 5.8 on technical, and also the Canadians a 5.8 on technical. Obviously, the Russians should have received a lower mark on the technical since the guy slipped.

That's the problem.

v.

sylvanb · #20 02-14-2002, 12:55 PM

Well, my heart is with the Canadians, but I can understand why the Russians would get technical points for their more difficult program. On presentation, I don't think they showed the charisma of their short program nor the verve of the Canadians.

Unless the investigation turns up some hanky panky, I don't see it as an obvious call either way.

But my heart....

realtraveller · #21 02-14-2002, 01:02 PM

If the investigation shows that there was a bribe or deal to fix the voting on these skaters, how to fix it? Surely results that were bought for a bribe cannot stand.

Perhaps the best solution would be to throw out the scores given by the tainted judges and recalculate the standings without them.
I don't even know how this would work out vis-a-vis the Canadians, but it seems the only fair way to fix things after the fact.

Then those judges should be disqualified from ever judging any more skating competitions.

kuuleimomi · #22 02-14-2002, 01:03 PM

OK, let's call Russians R and Canadians C.

C have been skating their program THREE seasons in a row. They are world champions, though last year in Vancouver they failed one jump and still got higher technical marks. Their program is not as difficult as R's.

R did not fail the element. It was parallel. They landed on one leg each. They did not touch the ice. The element was done. They were a bit shaky. That's all. It's not the end of the world. Yes, they lost .2 on it.

Their program was more difficult. They were not perfectly confident on the landing. C's program was easier. They were good, they got higher technical marks.

R won short program. R lost technical merit. R won presentation. R won the Olympics.

It was close. 5 against 4. If French judge is totally right, then it's screwed up. But without France I feel like it's totally R's. With France, I would get rid of the Olympics altogether.

Finn

wivabef · #23 02-14-2002, 01:20 PM

Performance (or presentation) scores are effected by bawbles, and at one point the woman R touched the ice and the male R double footed in the triple double combination.

For once, I agree with Nancy Kerrigan -- she believes judges should not be there at practices. They should only judge based on the actually performance -- that's where it counts.

vonboob · #24 02-14-2002, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Their program was more difficult. They were not perfectly confident on the landing. C's program was easier. They were good, they got higher technical marks.

You don't make sense. Are you saying that R should get higher marks for tech merit?

No, the tech merit is for level of difficulty and C had it way higher. All elements: throws, lifts, footwork and edges were more complex and better executed. That's also why French judge has no excuse to give the same marks: made it too evident...

And as the presentation goes, I'm not convinced that Borishnikov is the proper "model" of what figure skating should look like. If I want to see the grace of wrist movements and finger extension, well, I’ll not go there. Maybe judges should stop going to ballet for a while and try the ballroom competitions.

How about the fall-out what seems to follow? In men competition R lands on his ass and still gets 4th place while C under-turns quad (!) and gets 7th...