So, I was talking to one of my bosses this morning, and she mentioned my coauditor's name. The mere mention of his name sent me on a rant about how I feel like I'm not being backed up since the new computer system came online, how I feel like I'm doing all the work of "making things work" and he's going along behind me, messing things up...

So, realizing that I have again reached the point with him that the mere mention of him name will send me through the roof, I determined that I had two options. The first option was go to the other boss, tell her what all my problems with him are, and see what happens. I am reluctant to do this, as, from my point of view, this is going behind his back without giving him a chance to defend himself or change his evil ways. (Never mind the fact that last year I took him asside and had a talk with him about pretty much the same issues, minus the new computer). The second option was, of course, talk to Ryan directly.

An example of the issues: Ages ago, an F&B manager and I were talking about posting things to the correct accounts. I asked him if he was getting a copy of the account list every day, he said no. I told him that Ryan and I would print it out for him. Ryan was present at the time. Today I asked him if he was printing out the report, he said no. When I asked him why, he said he didn't want to. So I pointed out to him that if the F&B managers don't know where to post things, they are going to post it to the slush pile account... and then we get to fix it. Giving them the report takes 10 seconds. Fixing the problem after the fact takes half an hour. But Ryan doesn't want to do it because *I* said we should do it... and I'm not a manager.

After discussing the one report, and how it saves *our* time... Ryan made a joke about me being a manager. This is Ryan code for, "You're being awefully bossy lately." So, I broke down, explained to him that I have no desire to be a manager (truth, I've done it, I suck. Control freaks don't belong in management, we belong in accounting where we can do the most good). And I told him that I basically feel like I'm being sabotaged by him. At this point, we have it worked out that I have been making it very clear what I do, and why I do it, and he has neither been volunteering any information, nor asking any questions. He promised to read the manual I wrote, and ask me about things he does differently.

Another part of the problem is that at this point "we" are making the job up as we go along... and I'm doing all the work for it.... and Ryan goes along with what I say *if* he feels like it... and if he doesn't, he won't say anything, he'll just nod and smile, and do what he wants to do. Hopefully, the comptroller (the mean boss) will be coming on the audit for training soon, so I can show *her* what the stuff in the manual means. Once *she* starts saying "Ryan, do it the way eris says," he'll toe the line better. Until next year, when I'll have to kick him into line again.

I guess what gets my goat is that, on the one hand, he's been here three years longer than me, and yet, since I started, he's been hearing from EVERYBODY "Ryan, could you do it the way eris does it?"... and he resents that (and I *really* don't blame him for that). On the other hand... he's making *no* effort to take control of the situation, to find out what information people need and how to get it to them, to make things more efficient, or effective... he just goes and does what he was trained to do, and that's the extent of it. I know it's not rational on my part, but if he's going to resent me for "taking over," the least he could do is try to expend a little effort on having something for me to take over.

!sigh

I really didn't mean to turn this into a rant about the deficiencies of my coworker. Really. So, to attempt to try to turn this into a discussion (and not just a pity party for eris, who really doesn't need one)... what's your take on conflict management? Do you just take over and bend people to your will? (If so, do you use drugs or physical intimidation? And will you give me phone numbers?) Do you suffer in silence? Do you discuss the issues? Do you kick it up to management? Or do you just have really good friends in the housekeeping department who will help you hide the bodies?

Since a publishing company doesn't have a housekeeping department (how inconvenient!) I have to resort to a different option.

If I am having trouble with a colleague that affects my own performance I will take it to my manager -- who in my case is nearly always the offenders manager too.

If the issue does not affect my performance, but merely makes me nuts, then I resort to passive aggressive tactics to return the favor. :satan:

Usually, either I outrank the other person or they outrank me and whoever has the most brass on their collar wins and we do it their/my way.

However, I do have a controlling personality and I like certain things done a certain way (I am also a freak for neatness and efficiency). My husband, on the other hand, has the type of personality that needs a kick in the ass to get him moving. Of course, I'm just the person to give him that kick in the ass. :satan: He resents it, and we both have perverse rebellious streaks that surface from time to time, but eventually he comes around to my way of doing things (I can usually prove that my way is the safest, most efficient, best in the long-run, etc.). I resent having to kick him in the ass in the first place, and really, he has gotten better about actually noticing when something needs doing instead of waiting for me to tell him but he will never be as good at it as me.

Obviously, I don't have a higher power to appeal to for managing my husband. We have a fight about me kicking him in the ass and him not doing what I want from time to time, but we usually work it out. Since you have a higher authority to appeal to--use them. And if this guy is resentful, too bad. He can always go find another job or become more motivated to do the one he has well.

--naomi

Quote:And if this guy is resentful, too bad. He can always go find another job or become more motivated to do the one he has well.

*snerk*

That's one of those conversations I have with myself. The unfortunate truth is that 1) we're union, and #2 we're in a niche job... so even though I keep telling my boss that if Ryan leaves I can make 3 phone calls and have a dozen *good* applicants beat down the door, she doesn't believe me. Hotel managers have nightmares about losing their night auditors...

!sigh

I do not play well with others when I'm not running the show. I spent years with a Little Miss Know It All reputation and it has taken years to stamp it out. The best I can say for myself is that I'm mellowing, finding a way to allow for a Universe where everything isn't done exactly my way and seeing that the planets don't collide or explode routinely, even if everything isn't lined up my way.

What I have to do, personally, is just walk away and turn a blind eye when I see things (I'm not the boss of) being done duck definition wrong. And then I wait. And grit my teeth. And wait. And grit my teeth some more. Eventually (and this could take a couple of years), eventually, somebody comes to me and says "this is a whole big ball of mess, can you help us fix it?" Alternatively, the big ball of mess grows to the point where one of the PTB happens to mention it to me in casual conversation and then I take the opportunity to say how it could be fixed. (Hoping that the foam on my mouth doesn't show.)

My greatest personal growth success happened this year. Corporate took on an inventory program that didn't run through my division. The only successful, non-balled up inventory programs have always run through my division where I personally move all of the numbers neatly around so that all of the neat numbers line up neatly. (It's almost always numbers that I'm a control freak about it) I turned this program down because there wasn't enough money in it to make my division a profit and compensate everybody else too.

So, I offered my help in setting the program up for them and walked away. Did they listen? Nope, they pretty much did everything the complete opposite of the way I would have told them to do it. (They were thinking, we're putting a bunch of pencils on the shelf, how hard is this?) And I watched the chaos daily. I watched PTB blow their stacks at the huge shipments coming in (ordered by people who hadn't a clue what they were doing). I watched the warehouse folks threaten to walk out over the lack of communication and the part where nobody had thought to case pack the incoming in the quantities that they were being reshipped. I daily (and this is TOTALLY PATHETIC), daily snooped on the program in the computer, watching all of the numbers fall completely out of whack because orders were being entered wrong and invoices were being vouched wrong.
And people called me. The warehouse begged for my help. The sales assistants who were taking orders begged for my help. And I said, hmmmmmmmm, I really don't know what's going on there, but I'm not involved, talk to Mr. X.

And finally, after 3 months of chaos, Mr. X (a good friend whom I love but doesn't listen very well), finally he came to me and said "Help".

And I helped. I tore everything out of the computer and put it back in, I put in a real system for checking inventory and shipping packing slips, I met with the sales staff and the warehouse people and got everybody on the same page. And now it runs.

Point of the long story is this: the old me we would have driven everybody bats before the get go. I would have gotten stuff set up the way I wanted and would have irritated everybody in the process. And, nobody would understand why I was being anal about XYZ, it would have just been "Know it All Duck said so".

How this relates to Eris - sympathy mostly.

Here's what I recommend:

You're already doing well because you have areas where pushback is going to get him to do things the way you believe they should be done. (Folks asking for things the way Eris does it, the comptroller's umpcoming visit, etc.)

I'd probably communicate to Ryan (in business words), "I'm not going to nag you anymore. If you want my help, I'm happy to help you." And sit. And wait. And let things go buggy.

Eventually, if the buggy is important enough and the pushback is great enough, he will start to do things Eris' way, by either choice or decree. Just a lot of sitting and waiting and letting things go buggy until then.

Andrea

Eris, I've been in your situation a few times.

Ryan's not doing things your way is a symptom, but I don't think it's the real problem. What I see, and I could be wrong, is he is refusing to do his work. It's his job to print out that report. He just doesn't want to do it, and he's using your supposed power trips as his excuse to do nothing, or as little as possible.

If he "resents you having power", give him a reason to resent it: Get him fired. That might be heartless but when you have a situation where the person doesn't want to work and you're having to carry the freight, nothing is going to change as long as you're there to make sure everything is done regardless of what dumbass doesn't want to do.

Continue to do your job as you have, take Andrea's tip about collecting every bit of information you can, and start applying direct and indirect pressure on PTB's to make a change.




Brian

Brian, I'm afraid you're right... but I hate to make that accusation of anyone. Even if it's true.

Having just gloated on the kid thread about how biting the bullet and speaking your mind to the PTB's is the right way to go when dealing with people that drive you nuts, why am I so ambivilant about getting Ryan fired?

Mostly because, as a coworker, he drives me nuts, but as a person, I genuinely like him. Which isn't an excuse, we're here to work, not socialize. But it does make it harder to make that killing stroke. Besides, he's mentioned he'll be quitting soon... in a year or so...

*sigh*

Eris, your ambivalence is part of what makes you human. And lovable.

What, you mean I wouldn't be as lovable if I was more willing to stab real friends in the back?

eris esoteric Wrote:Brian, I'm afraid you're right... but I hate to make that accusation of anyone. Even if it's true.

Having just gloated on the kid thread about how biting the bullet and speaking your mind to the PTB's is the right way to go when dealing with people that drive you nuts, why am I so ambivilant about getting Ryan fired?

Mostly because, as a coworker, he drives me nuts, but as a person, I genuinely like him. Which isn't an excuse, we're here to work, not socialize. But it does make it harder to make that killing stroke. Besides, he's mentioned he'll be quitting soon... in a year or so...

*sigh*

Just getting back to the thread...which of course is taking a little detour, so let me help that along.

Gross overstatement that is almost true: Nobody likes to see anybody fired, especially not someone who has been with the company for awhile. Level of competency doesn't matter - the most inept, socially backwards, uncooperative creature on earth, complain about them, bitch moan, look for the button to make them disappear but the day they get fired, you'll still be sick to your stomach.

For a long time, I thought that it was just my sort - the internally gushy, empathetic chick. (I don't wear that on the outside at work, but internally I'm a mush ball.) And then I hung out with the Tough Managment Guys at work and I see that they are every bit as big a mush ball as I am. One guy was practically shaking after he had to fire somebody for the first time. (Me, I usually just want to throw up before and after and have nightmares for a couple of weeks afterwards.)

I'm sure this is why more people don't get fired in life. You go into a store or call a company on the phone and just get the worst service from somebody who is really bad at her job. You think to yourself - "How on earth does this person keep her job? This company must be clueless."

The answer is more likely that the person who is responsible for firing her has to really be pushed to the wall before the trigger gets pulled.

Broadening the issue: It is better for a company and better for the American economy if a reasonable number of people get fired every year. Look around you - more people should get fired. They could then, theoretically, find positions they are better suited to or improve their skill set so they don't get fired next time around.

Narrowing the issue: Had to fire somebody who had worked with me for a number of years. The firing was completely justified (long story I can't publish). 6 months later, I'm still having dreams about it.

Andrea

pluckyduck Wrote:Broadening the issue: It is better for a company and better for the American economy if a reasonable number of people get fired every year. Look around you - more people should get fired. They could then, theoretically, find positions they are better suited to or improve their skill set so they don't get fired next time around.

Plus, you can blame it on the Republicans.

CurtisEdmonds Wrote:Plus, you can blame it on the Republicans.

OMIGOD! Is this true? The next time I have to fire somebody, I can just claim The Republicans Made Me Do It?

Cool! :thumbs:

Andrea

OK

Well, I emailed the comptroller.

I told her I'd like to have a private meeting with her, because I have some "interpersonal issues" that I would like to see resolved as quickly as possible.

At this point, I can't tell if I'm being a control freak, or if Ryan's really as bad as I think he is. It's time to get a different perspective on the issue.

*sigh*

You go girl!

*mutters incoherently about Midwest passive aggressive bullshit and liars*

Remember that sometimes what looks like "Midwest passive aggressive bullshit" is similar to assertiveness, practicality, and a willingness to let other people cut their own throats.

No, no, no... assertiveness is actually being willing to be upset about what you're upset about. Passive agressiveness is when you can't be upset about what you're upset about, so you get upset about everything else *but* what you're upset about.



My mother's from Ohio. Trust me, I *know* these things.

No, no, no. Please remember this thread is running in the Business forum. Women, from the midwest or no, cannot be assertive in business. Men are assertive. Women are bitchy or strident.

Men are "playing the game". Women are passive aggressive.

Andrea

As long as we're slinging gender stereotypes, is it "that" time of the month?

brian_igo Wrote:As long as we're slinging gender stereotypes, is it "that" time of the month?

No, actually not.

At that particular time of the month you can compare me to:



or Roseanne. You could also compare me to Donald Trump after someone gets fingerprints all over his solid gold faucets, but since we are willing to make a hit show out of Trump being an overbearing self important ass, and we're willing to put Martha on trial for the same, I doubt anybody would think of a male comparison to me at That Time of the Month.



Andrea
who still, might be a wee bit cranky, even if hormones aren't playing

So, anyway...



Have finally received some form of resolution on this. It's not ideal, but few things in the real world are. Tried to have a talk with both the comptroller and Ryan, but, for various reasons, that didn't work out. Ended up having a couple talks with the comptroller. The issues, as we see them are...

1) I am *way* too anal retentive. Seriously. I've been nitpicking, and I need to stop.

2) One of the reasons that I've been nitpicking is because I'm the one that knows the job the best at this point. The comptroller has read the manual, she's comfortable with the computer system, but there's things that I simply couldn't put in the manual (because I'd still be writing it if they were). Add to this the fact that one of the A/R clerks in accounting has been out for almost a month, and the comptroller is doing her job... I haven't wanted to bug her.

3) I am not a manager. There are a great many reasons why I am not a manager. The nitpicking thing is one of them. I literally don't have the right to tell Ryan to do something he doesn't want to do. Doesn't matter if I'm RIGHT, I don't have the authority. And I've spent all my persuasion points with him at this point. I don't think I could tell him to stop drop and roll if he was on fire and have him listen to me at this point.

4) Comptroller has said flat out that if I think Ryan's doing something wrong, email her, she'll email Ryan. Tried an experiment on this today, she's holding up her end of the bargain.

5) Comptroller says that Ryan's work is within acceptable limits. Comptroller has also said that she knows that I do more work than Ryan. She sees the extra effort that I put into the job, and appreciates it. Comptroller has admitted that many things in the hotel (including Ryan) have improved since I started.

6) Comptroller has basically told me that I do what I do, and Ryan does what Ryan does. With me being the main auditor 5 nights a week, this works out that I do most of the work... but then I would still do what I do anyway, because I'm like that. She has said that I can't expect Ryan to work at my level.

Now, number 4 has me somewhat satisfied. If I can explain to her what I want done, in a comprehensible fashion, and she can communicate to Ryan that *she* wants it done my way, I'm cool. I'm more used to going to people directly and asking them to do what I want them to, and explaining why... but Ryan has an authority hangup. If it doesn't come from an authority figure, he won't listen. So, I've got the authority figure on my side.

Number 6 kind of bothers me. Ryan makes more than I do, or at least, since he's been working there 3 years longer than me, I hope he does. But I do more work, and get more done. Ryan can't be expected to work up to my level... but at least I'm not trying to work down to his (DAMN my Yankee work ethic!). If this were any other place, I'd shove it and move on. But the fact of the matter is, I'm making vastly more here than anything else comparable (I still giggle when I see my paychecks. I haven't seen paychecks like this since I worked 12 hour shifts 6 days a week). And I'm still doing less work than at the last two jobs I had. So, I can deal with it.

And, bottom line, I LIKE my job. I'm respected. I'm liked. I'm challenged. I don't have a boss hanging over my neck. Yeah, I gripe a lot, but I'd gripe anywhere I go. At least I'm usually funny when I gripe.

So, like I said... not a perfect resolution, but a decent one.

eris esoteric Wrote:And, bottom line, I LIKE my job. I'm respected. I'm liked. I'm challenged. I don't have a boss hanging over my neck. Yeah, I gripe a lot, but I'd gripe anywhere I go. At least I'm usually funny when I gripe.

All these things are true and good. Glad to hear things worked out acceptably for you, because you deserve it. :thumbs: